Comics on YouTube

The place to talk about your favorite novels, comic books and web comics.
User avatar
Arkrite
Posts: 884
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:16 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Arkrite » Fri May 25, 2018 4:38 pm


The whole "you didn't kill the killer so you're complicit in his crimes" idea is barbarous and ridiculous. It makes every employee of Arkham, Blackgate, and the Gotham City Police murderers.

And the lawyers for not getting him executed. And the Judges. And the jurys.

And the citizens for not voting in a politician who would change the laws...

User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 4:56 pm

Ken wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:31 pm
Jason should still be dead. Damien should be a sticky mess in a used bat-condom.

The whole "you didn't kill the killer so you're complicit in his crimes" idea is barbarous and ridiculous. It makes every employee of Arkham, Blackgate, and the Gotham City Police murderers.
Not to mention every police officer, sheriffs’ deputy, court bailiff, and prison guard in the real world who was involved in capturing a criminal who then went on to commit a homicide in the future. I mean, if we’re going to call out a fictional character for falling short of an ethical standard, why not apply it in the real world?

I like my escapist superhero fiction to be about people who can be more idealistic and more heroic than I can be. They’re meant to be aspirational.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ares » Fri May 25, 2018 5:06 pm

I'll admit, I always thought Batman: The Dark Knight Returns was kind of overrated. At the very least, I don't should have had the impact it did, given how many people look to it as the definitive Batman story and an example of how he should be written. Outside of his Daredevil run, I really feel Frank Miller should have just stuck to Sin City.

As far as Batman's code against killing goes, I'm very much in favor of it. To me, superheroes are tolerated primarily because they work as much within the law as possible, apprehending criminals with appropriate force and dealing with problems that are beyond the scope of normal law enforcement. Superheroes are embraced because they save lives, stop threats, and when they've dealt with a criminal, they turn them over to the proper authorities to let the legal system deal with them.

The reason cops are allowed to use lethal force against criminals is because they are normal people armed with the only weapons available to them, and even then there is a very small number of circumstances that give them the right to respond with lethal force. And every use of lethal force is investigated to make sure the cop was acting appropriately.

Superheroes are often men and women with skills, weapons and abilities beyond that of normal people, and have options beyond lethal force to subdue a target. And even then, I feel they're justified in killing if it's a "kill or be killed" scenario where they have no other options. If Batman was in a fight with the Joker and the only way he could save his own life or the life of someone else was to kill the Joker in the heat of battle, I don't think anyone could complain.

If Batman has the Joker defeated and subdued, has him completely restrained and ready to turn into the police, and then he kills the Joker? That's murder. If the Joker is not an immediate threat, if he's restrained and defeated, Batman killing him would be murder, period. At that point, he has decided to take it upon himself who lives and who dies, making him literally judge, jury and executioner. At that point, he has lost his objectivity and would probably turn himself over to be imprisoned.

Batman stops the Joker and turns himself over to the police. After that, it's up to the legal system to deal with the Joker appropriately. If it's anyone's fault that the Joker is still a menace, it's the courts that don't simply put him to death or ask Superman to put him into the Phantom Zone.

Granted, its part of the reason why I feel Batman works better when he actually, you know, prevents the Joker from killing people, otherwise the Gotham City legal system looks REALLY bad for not killing him. As it stands, in the case of most cartoons and comics, Batman stops the Joker before he harms too many people. Which is how it should be.

A major point of the whole Knightfall Saga was to examine whether or not the concept of Batman was better served by Bruce Wayne or by 90's Anti-Hero Azreal, and the ultimately conclusion the writers and fans came to was that Bruce Wayne was the one true Batman.

User avatar
Woodclaw
Posts: 584
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:05 pm
Location: Como, Italy

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Woodclaw » Fri May 25, 2018 5:13 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 3:08 pm
Because, the Batman doesn’t kill. That’s his sole justification. That’s it. Bruce doesn’t make a utilitarian argument or a Judeao-Christian theological argument or any other philosophical argument... He doesn’t kill. Full stop. Period. End of line. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
My personal take on the character is that it all stem from the fact that Batman understand loss. It's probably the only thing that is stronger in him than his hate for criminals. Many superheroes are defined by a loss, but in Bruce's case it happened in a moment when he was too young to do anything about it, but also too old not to remember. Those feeling are burned into the deepest part of his mind and never leave him. He knows how devastating loss can be and he don't want anyone else to experience it. It might be a childish motivation, but Batman is very much a childhood trauma with legs.

There is a similar argument to be made about Dick Grayson, who lived through a similar situation, but was able to outgrow it somehow. Young Justice S1E22 said it better when Batman admitted that he accepted Dick as Robin so that he wouldn't become just like him ... or worse.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

WareHouse W (main build thread for M&M)

User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 6:15 pm

Image

Image

“Don’t become what killed our families.”

Alex Ross. Nuff said.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

MacynSnow
Posts: 1915
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:56 pm

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by MacynSnow » Fri May 25, 2018 7:58 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 6:15 pm
Image

Image

“Don’t become what killed our families.”

Alex Ross. Nuff said.
*Crying on ken's shoulder* that was beautiful Bg,well done.....*blows nose on Kenny's Cape*

BriarThrone
Posts: 295
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:33 am

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by BriarThrone » Sat May 26, 2018 2:26 am

There are a few very good reasons why you don't cross that line, for whatever the reason.

First, maybe there is a belief that even if the criminal must be stopped by a vigilante, the judicial system must be allowed to work. It's one thing to catch criminals as the police would, and another to be judge, jury, and executioner as well.

Second, maybe you don't want to raise the stakes. You go full Punisher on criminals, and the criminals will suddenly know that their lives are on the line, and defend themselves aggressively. Lots of innocents and police will suffer as a result.

Third, maybe you believe that deciding who lives and who dies is not for you. Once you make the decision once, you establish the principle that some criminals are so bad that they deserve to die. Where is the line? What if it gets fuzzy over time? What if you become the Punisher?

I have nothing against Batman's ethics, or those of Gordon and his good cops. I find it an interesting contrast to grittier heroes like Wolverine or Punisher.

HOWEVER... it is only the demands of comic book stories that prevents security (or medical) personnel from arranging a fatal "accident" for the Joker. The Joker has demonstrated repeatedly that he is a terrible danger to security and treatment personnel, and once he gets out, he'll do some new horrible violent thing. Killing a prisoner/patient is wrong... but in cases like this one, good luck finding >50% who think that this is ALWAYS the case.

User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ares » Sat May 26, 2018 2:48 am

I'd honestly be tempted to just say that the Joker's fall into those chemical vats gave him a healing factor, one that allows him to eventually recover from almost all injuries. Since there's no real way to reliable kill him without crossing into "Cruel and Unusual Punishment" territory, they have to keep him locked up as best they can. Part of Batman's constant need for restraint is that he knows he can indulge in every violent impulse on the Joker and that the Joker would eventually just get better, but doing so would be indulging in the worst parts of his behavior and just make them that harder to control.

In the comics, his chemical exposure did make him immune to most poisons and chemicals, so it's hard to arrange accidents for the Joker. In fact, I'd actually say that the reason most people don't try to arrange accidents for the Joker is that the first few times it was tried, the Joker not only survived, but the things he did to the people who tried to kill him, to their families, well, it sent a message that few people were willing to try again. I'd also say that a large chunk of the Joker's escapes are due to people trying to kill him, because he's so skilled that he can use such opportunities to get free and get out. People trying to kill the Joker are actually counter-productive.

Jabroniville
Posts: 7509
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Jabroniville » Sun May 27, 2018 12:52 pm

I generally agree that "Heroes Shouldn't Kill", particularly since it's one of those things that makes the genre work as it does. Legally, a hero could kill in self-defense, but like Briar said, that kind of "escalates" things beyond a certain point.

The primary issue I have with the Joker in modern comics is that they've turned him into a mass-murdering omnicidal killer, to the point where it's INSANITY that he's allowed to just march out of Arkham whenever he wants. The Joker works better as a guy who wants to kill BATMAN and then steal millions, not massacre hundreds of innocent people. That level of grittiness is really just unacceptable in a recurring villain. After a point... their punishment needs to be severe, or the story turns into morose blackness.

I had this debate with a cop friend of mine (humorously, he was PRO-Batman killing The Joker, for the same "he keeps escaping and killing people" reasons), and I had to point out "It's not Batman's JOB to kill The Joker!" Like, he's just a regular guy! Not an appointed agent of the law!

That said, anyone could kill a tied up, unconscious Joker and probably get away with it easily. I mean, he could have been faking. He's been KNOWN to escape and kill those who've wronged him. He could have Joker Gas or who knows what else on him. "I had to be sure" or something would probably fly, especially if you had a good enough lawyer.

User avatar
HalloweenJack
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by HalloweenJack » Sun May 27, 2018 2:04 pm

Batman shouldn't kill. He can be tempted to do it, he can want it, but he never should do it. It's not who he is. It isn't Superman or Spider-Man either. It isn't Hawkeye.

That said, I don't have much problem with the heroes who do kill either(provided they're characters and not Liefeldian DeathDeathBloods). It's who a Punisher or Wolverine is.

I think my favorite character for this whole thing is Captain America. When I first saw Captain America: The First Avenger and he says that whole "I'd rather not kill anyone" line I looked at my then girlfriend/later wife and said "That. That's Cap in a nutshell". He doesn't want to do it, doesn't like to do it, but if the situation calls for it he totally will.

User avatar
Ares
Site Admin
Posts: 1460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:40 am

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 3:38 pm

Image

User avatar
Batgirl III
Posts: 1781
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:17 am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 4:08 pm

Image

“My real victory is in the lives that have been spared. For where there is life, there is the chance for new ideas, tolerance, and understanding. That’s triumph enough for any warrior.”

Alex Ross and Paul Dini, folks. Nobody does it better.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

User avatar
HalloweenJack
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:50 pm

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by HalloweenJack » Sun May 27, 2018 4:55 pm

Ares wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:38 pm
Image
nuff said

Spectrum
Posts: 1380
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:08 pm

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Spectrum » Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:35 pm

Less on the comics side, more on the gaming side. I've played this video about five times in the last half hour, brilliant 1980's cheese. For those new to the show, Critical Role is (one of) the biggest D&D oriented series on Youtube. Decent production values and professional voice actors for the entire table. Sam Riegel has a ton of talent in writing short songs and almost always does the advertising for their sponsors. A while back, he made a song for the D&D Beyond service and folks put a 80s style cartoon intro do it.

Enjoy!
We rise from the ashes so that new legends can be born.

Chris Brady
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:59 am

Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Chris Brady » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:15 pm

Ares wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:38 pm
Image
Thing is? He has killed. Why? Because as a soldier, he knows that sometimes the best way to end a fight is to end a life. And best, doesn't mean it's a good thing. Sometimes all you have are bad choices, and you have to pick one, including doing nothing, the best you can do is hope the choice you made is the best one at the time.

And with Jabroniville on what's wrong with the Joker. A man with a grudge against Batman is one thing, but a mass murdering psychotic sociopath allowed to recommit time and time again? A line has to be drawn.

Post Reply