Comics on YouTube

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Ken
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ken » Thu May 24, 2018 10:44 pm

MacynSnow wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:33 pm
The Dark Knight Returns had a surprisingly good story
Let's just agree to disagree.
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Scots Dragon
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Scots Dragon » Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 pm

Ken wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:44 pm
MacynSnow wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:33 pm
The Dark Knight Returns had a surprisingly good story
Let's just agree to disagree.
While not as terrible as some of Miller's later work, the Dark Knight Returns was kind of bad from a certain perspective because it really skewed basically the entire perception of Batman in the public eye, turning him into a gritty anti-hero when he was always far more the gothic and theatrical hero. It also brought with it the impression that he 'gave Batman his balls back' when he'd ditched the campy and cheesy persona of the Adam West television series within a year of its conclusion.

Batman should be theatrical and gothic, more like the hybrid of Zorro and the Phantom of the Opera than the gritty Frank Miller mess.
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Ken
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ken » Thu May 24, 2018 11:35 pm

Scots Dragon wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 pm
While not as terrible as some of Miller's later work, the Dark Knight Returns was kind of bad from a certain perspective because it really skewed basically the entire perception of Batman in the public eye, turning him into a gritty anti-hero when he was always far more the gothic and theatrical hero. It also brought with it the impression that he 'gave Batman his balls back' when he'd ditched the campy and cheesy persona of the Adam West television series within a year of its conclusion.

Batman should be theatrical and gothic, more like the hybrid of Zorro and the Phantom of the Opera than the gritty Frank Miller mess.
Right on!!!
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Batgirl III
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Thu May 24, 2018 11:43 pm

People always seem to miss that the Batman of Dark Knight Returns wasn’t acting like the Batman of the modern day, he was acting like the Batman in a semi-apocalyptic distopian future. In that context, the Batman has every reason to be a “gritty anti-hero.” But by final act, he’s solved the major crisis that required his return and has become a “gothic and theatrical hero” once more.

That was sort of the point of the story. But too many people seem to forget the moral of the story.

Including Frank Miller, himself, it seems.
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Woodclaw
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Woodclaw » Fri May 25, 2018 8:55 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:43 pm
People always seem to miss that the Batman of Dark Knight Returns wasn’t acting like the Batman of the modern day, he was acting like the Batman in a semi-apocalyptic distopian future. In that context, the Batman has every reason to be a “gritty anti-hero.” But by final act, he’s solved the major crisis that required his return and has become a “gothic and theatrical hero” once more.

That was sort of the point of the story. But too many people seem to forget the moral of the story.

Including Frank Miller, himself, it seems.
I think it's a problem of mistaking the form for the content: Batman -- at least in the post-1984 incarnations -- looks and feel like the kind of ultra-gritty anti-hero that is just one small step away from killing, which makes his constant refusal even more maddening in the eyes of some people.
The problem is when someone (yes, I'm looking at you Zack Snyder) transplant the more darker and bloodthirsty version of Batman into other contexts and leave more or less every other element of the character intact ... especially his human contacts. Just consider James Gordon, he's pretty much the one sane man in that dungpile that is Gotham, the only clean and honest cop around. He trusted the Bat to help fixing the city, but would he had done it if Mr. Dark Knight went around gunning every criminal in sight? Personally I don't think so.
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Batgirl III
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 2:03 pm

I hate when people drop the Batman’s code against killing (Tim Burton did it long before Snyder). Far from making the character more interesting, to me, it completely changes the tone of the hero...
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Chris Brady
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Chris Brady » Fri May 25, 2018 2:06 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 2:03 pm
I hate when people drop the Batman’s code against killing (Tim Burton did it long before Snyder). Far from making the character more interesting, to me, it completely changes the tone of the hero...
Which causes problems for me. How do you justify keeping The Joker alive?

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Batgirl III
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 2:27 pm

Depends on the specific ethical code of the hero.

In the case of the Batman, it’s because it’s a moral absolute: he does not kill. He knows he could, he knows he has friends and allies that sometimes do, but it’s an absolute moral standard that he holds himself too. The Joker lives because everyone lives, no matter what.

In the case of Superman, it’s a pragmatic decision. He’ll kill if he absolutely has no other option, but he’s usually able to come up with an alternative and for many of his foes, death isn’t actually a way to end their threat. The Joker lives because Clark can stop his threat without killing him.
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Chris Brady » Fri May 25, 2018 2:58 pm

By letting the Joker live, he causes more harm then ending him permanently would. In fact, in the span of '10' comic years, he's actually murdered enough people to depopulate Hell's Kitchen. How does Batman justify letting a mass murderer (any time you kill more than 3 people, it's a mass murder according to U.S. law) with a proven record of successful escapes to commit more, not 'accidentally' fall down the stairs. Multiple times. Till dead.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 3:08 pm

Because, the Batman doesn’t kill. That’s his sole justification. That’s it. Bruce doesn’t make a utilitarian argument or a Judeao-Christian theological argument or any other philosophical argument... He doesn’t kill. Full stop. Period. End of line. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
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MacynSnow
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by MacynSnow » Fri May 25, 2018 3:47 pm

Another reason Bats doesn't kill Joker is because that's what the Joker wants him to do.In his own twisted mind,the good Mr.Napier believes that everyone is just "One Bad Day" away from turning into him.The fact that Batman didn't turn out like himself when he had that "One Bad Day"(it's safe to assume that by this long of time,Mr.J has figured out who he is&just doesn't care) both infuriates and facinates him to no end.He want's batman to be him SO bad,he's been pushing the man to kill him for years. :geek:

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Arkrite
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Arkrite » Fri May 25, 2018 4:06 pm

Why is that Batman's fault?
He caught the criminal, put him in police custody and the entire justice system decided not to execute the Joker.

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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Chris Brady » Fri May 25, 2018 4:16 pm

Batman is a vigilante, he does a lot of criminal activities in his pursuit of justice, B&E's tampering with evidence, assault and battery... And by letting Joker escape Arkham over and over, he's also complicit into every single murder the pasty one commits.

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Batgirl III
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Batgirl III » Fri May 25, 2018 4:19 pm

The Batman’s other allies are either idealists, absolutists, or pragmatists... and in two cases, religious.

The idealists are Barbara, Dick, Steph, and Tim all honestly believe that maybe this time the criminal justice system will work, maybe this time the prison/asylum will hold him, maybe this time they can catch him before he kills again... Babs believes it genuinely, just like Jim Gordon. Dick and Steph believe it because they believe in Bruce. Tim believes is because he chooses to, because otherwise he’d become a jaded nihilist.

Cassandra Cain is the only other absolutist. Her code against killing is as strong — possibly stronger — as the Batman. She doesn’t have any “justification” for it, she thinks it’s an absolute wrong and refuses to kill. Hell, she spends one night a year (the anniversary of the one time she did take a life) doing her best to stop anyone else in the city from killing someone on that day. Not just the standard vigilante preventing crimes and murders, oh no, she breaks into a federal prison to stop someone from being executed as part of their legally ordered death sentence! Not even Bruce carries things that far.

Selena, Alfred, Jim, Harvey, and most of the honest GCPD officers are pragmatists. They’d rather avoid killing, but if it is necessary to use lethal force to end a threat then they will not hesitate to do so. Note that most of these people are “ordinary” people, they don’t have the elaborate super-skills and bat-gadgets to be able to overcome threats like the superheroes do. Selena, otoh, is perpetually dancing between being a criminal and being a hero. Criminal Catwoman prefers to avoid killing because murder attracts more heat than theft and its “unprofessional,” but she absolutely will drop kick your ass off a skyscraper’s roof if you force her into a situation where that’s her only out. Heroic Catwoman is trying to live up to the ideals of the Batman, but struggling with it.

Jean-Paul and Helena, interestingly enough, are both strongly defined by their religious ethics... and the most likely Batman Family members to kill. The Catholic Church, of course, is kinda known teaching for that whole “Thou Shalt Not Murder” commandment is important. However, the catechism and theology of the Church does have an expansive body of works about when and why it is okay for people, like soldiers, to kill under certain circumstances. Jean-Paul and Helena probably justify themselves under a personal interpretation of this doctrine. “The Church says murder is wrong, but it’s not murder if a soldier kills the enemy during a war. I’m fighting a war on criminals...”

Jason and Damian are actually homicidal sociopaths. They only eschew killing because they don’t want to be lectured by the others.
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Ken
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Re: Comics on YouTube

Post by Ken » Fri May 25, 2018 4:31 pm

Jason should still be dead. Damien should be a sticky mess in a used bat-condom.

The whole "you didn't kill the killer so you're complicit in his crimes" idea is barbarous and ridiculous. It makes every employee of Arkham, Blackgate, and the Gotham City Police murderers.
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