Idol of Millions

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RUSCHE
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Idol of Millions

Post by RUSCHE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:05 pm

I wondering if I am alone in wanting Ben Grimm back as a legitimate heavy hitter in the sense of character and we'll a heavyweight threat to bad guys.

I would like the character to get some respect again. He is tough to has a heart of gold and will just not stop until the bad guy is down.
I know the issues between Disney/Marvel and Fox have muddied the waters so to speak, but heck he deserves to be more than a let's see the new guy beat up the Thing to show how tough to and powerful he really is..

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Ares
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by Ares » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:25 am

You're definitely not alone.

I'm a big Ben Grimm fan as well, and I think it sucks that ONLY the top tier guys seems to have gotten more powerful with time, while Ben has remained more or less on the same level.

To be fair, I don't want Ben to suddenly be as strong as the Hulk, Hercules or the other Class 100 guys. Not that I ever used the old Marvel Class system literally, but it made a great pecking order chart, and could work as a general Strength chart with some tweaks. Basically, I tended to view the chart as having two aspects: the weight a character could lift and how they compared to other heroes. That might sound weird that those would be separate things, but in comics, it seems the amount of weight one can lift is not proportional to your performance against other characters. Like, Spider-Man can usually lift around 10-15 tons. He's gone up against folks like the Rhino, the Thing, She-Hulk, Titania and even Thor and caused them physical harm with his attacks, when these guys can lift hundreds or thousands of tons.

My basic notion is that, when it comes to weight, the chart is something like:

Class 001 - Lowest superhuman strength, can lift between 1,000 pounds and 1 ton. Example: Paladin
Class 005 - Can lift several tons, average of 5. Enough to lift most automobiles. Example: Tombstone
Class 010 - Can lift around 10 to 15 tons. Can heft semi-trucks and fighter jets. Example: Spider-Man
Class 020 - Can lift around 20 to 25 tons. Able to lift APCs and large boulders. Example: Ch'od
Class 030 - Can lift around 30 to 35 tons. Can lift large whales and most vehicles. Example: Venom
Class 040 - Can lift around 40 to 45 tons. Can lift medium bulldozers. Example: Adam Warlock
Class 050 - Can lift between 50 to 100 tons. Can heft heavy bulldozers and tanks. Example: The Wrecking Crew
Class 060 - Can lift hundreds of tons. Can lift 747s and other aircraft. Example: Thundra
Class 070 - Can lift thousands of tons. Can heft freight trains and nuclear submarines. Example: Iron Man
Class 080 - Can lift tens of thousands of tons. This includes things like ocean liners, battleships, loaded freight ships, etc. Example: The Thing
Class 090 - Can lift hundreds of thousands of tons. Immense structures, from the aircraft carriers to the Empire State Building. Example: Namor
Class 100 - Can lift millions of tons. Can lift immense weights, from the Great Pyramids to asteroids to small mountains. Example: the Hulk

But when it comes to comparison, basically if Class 100 is “100%”, then everyone else inc a comparative contest of strength and damage is whatever their Class ranking is in percentage of Class 100. So Class 80 is 80% of Class 100, Class 10 is 10% of Class 100, and so on.

So Ben can lift tens of thousands of tons and is 80% as strong as guys like the Hulk. However, even with that strength gap, Ben’s big advantage should be his willpower and fighting skills. The guy just will not go down, and he’s got exceptional fighting skills, enough that if he were merely human, he could probably make a decent street level fighter.

I’d say, even more than the Hulk or Namor, the guys Ben would hate fighting are folks like Hercules or Thor, who are stronger than him while also being skilled fighters. Still, I’d say Ben should basically be the most skilled strongman in comics, outside of someone like Wonder Woman. Diana is actually someone I prefer to be at around Ben’s strength level, but with a combo of skill, agility, speed and gear that should let her pull even with guys like Superman or Captain Marvel.

But basically, even Class 100 guys should worry about taking on Ben in a fight. He’s definitely strong enough to hurt them, and I’d take it to where he’s actually developed his own unique fighting style, or rather a pair of styles: one for dealing with bigger, stronger guys, and one for dealing with smaller, faster guys. It’s not some kung fu “Way of the Yancy Street Stone Fist” or anything, but he has a methodology and collection of tactics that he uses against different foes to maximize his effectiveness.

Basically, even if he can’t lift mountains, Ben should be remembered as one of the strongest guys in Marvel, and a guy you don’t want to mess with.

RUSCHE
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by RUSCHE » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:08 pm

I totally agree. He should be a threat always. He as you said is a experienced street fighter, military trained and his will and refusal to go down in a fight should be a thing to be feared. No pun intended.

Jabroniville
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:19 am

Yeah, I agree entirely, and have said so in my thread numerous times- I hate how the Hulk has eclipsed Ben entirely, rendering their fights perfunctory exercises. Ben should be able to tangle with anybody, and they haven't given him a win in decades, practically.

RUSCHE
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by RUSCHE » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:26 pm

He should be the guy that enters a room full of villains and theatre r like oh @##$% THIS IS GOING TO HURT.

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MissRo
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by MissRo » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:09 pm

What a revoltin' development.
"In times of crisis, it is of utmost importance not to lose one's head." - M. Antoinette

RUSCHE
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by RUSCHE » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:38 pm

My sweet Aunt Petunia..

MacynSnow
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by MacynSnow » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:57 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:19 am
Yeah, I agree entirely, and have said so in my thread numerous times- I hate how the Hulk has eclipsed Ben entirely, rendering their fights perfunctory exercises. Ben should be able to tangle with anybody, and they haven't given him a win in decades, practically.
To Play "the Devil's Advocate "Game a bit here....

If you remember your Marvel lore well enough(and i'll admit,it's pretty far back into Marvel Continuty),Ben could never Take the Hulk in a Straight up fist-fight as Banner would just keep getting Stronger.Their first Confrontation ended with Ben getting thrown through a Construction site with it collapsing on top of him,almost Killing him.
He managed to get out of it Next Issue& "round 2"-d the Fight,THIS time using his Brain's and almost had him beat if the Cop's hadn't got caught in the Crossfire.....

That all being said,i personally detest what Marvel is Doing to The Fantastic Four(it's like a pair of 5-year old'd fighting over a favorite Toy at this point),with Ben just being the "Marvel Sacrificial Goat" as he was the Most Visible...

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StarGuard
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by StarGuard » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:19 am

Image

Stories and art like this one (I own the original print) made Ben and the FF my favorite Marvel comic during that period

Jabroniville
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:28 am

MacynSnow wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:57 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:19 am
Yeah, I agree entirely, and have said so in my thread numerous times- I hate how the Hulk has eclipsed Ben entirely, rendering their fights perfunctory exercises. Ben should be able to tangle with anybody, and they haven't given him a win in decades, practically.
To Play "the Devil's Advocate "Game a bit here....

If you remember your Marvel lore well enough(and i'll admit,it's pretty far back into Marvel Continuty),Ben could never Take the Hulk in a Straight up fist-fight as Banner would just keep getting Stronger.Their first Confrontation ended with Ben getting thrown through a Construction site with it collapsing on top of him,almost Killing him.
He managed to get out of it Next Issue& "round 2"-d the Fight,THIS time using his Brain's and almost had him beat if the Cop's hadn't got caught in the Crossfire.....

That all being said,i personally detest what Marvel is Doing to The Fantastic Four(it's like a pair of 5-year old'd fighting over a favorite Toy at this point),with Ben just being the "Marvel Sacrificial Goat" as he was the Most Visible...
BatgirlIII showed some links that had it pointed out on many occasions that Ben was usually holding back during their fights; he lacked the Hulk's sheer anger, and thus wasn't used to lashing out with full power. And in any case, those fights were usually "uphill battles"- in today's comics, a fight between the two is pointless, as the Hulk is so far superior by this point that it's ludicrous.

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danelsan
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by danelsan » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:18 pm

It is okay. The way Hulks and Hulk-like characters are proliferating in Marvel, it is just a question of time until Ben gets irradiated too, and we have Gamma-powered Thing to brawl with original-recipe Hulk and the other dozen.

:D :) :| :cry:

Shock
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by Shock » Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:51 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:28 am
MacynSnow wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:57 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:19 am
Yeah, I agree entirely, and have said so in my thread numerous times- I hate how the Hulk has eclipsed Ben entirely, rendering their fights perfunctory exercises. Ben should be able to tangle with anybody, and they haven't given him a win in decades, practically.
To Play "the Devil's Advocate "Game a bit here....

If you remember your Marvel lore well enough(and i'll admit,it's pretty far back into Marvel Continuty),Ben could never Take the Hulk in a Straight up fist-fight as Banner would just keep getting Stronger.Their first Confrontation ended with Ben getting thrown through a Construction site with it collapsing on top of him,almost Killing him.
He managed to get out of it Next Issue& "round 2"-d the Fight,THIS time using his Brain's and almost had him beat if the Cop's hadn't got caught in the Crossfire.....

That all being said,i personally detest what Marvel is Doing to The Fantastic Four(it's like a pair of 5-year old'd fighting over a favorite Toy at this point),with Ben just being the "Marvel Sacrificial Goat" as he was the Most Visible...
BatgirlIII showed some links that had it pointed out on many occasions that Ben was usually holding back during their fights; he lacked the Hulk's sheer anger, and thus wasn't used to lashing out with full power. And in any case, those fights were usually "uphill battles"- in today's comics, a fight between the two is pointless, as the Hulk is so far superior by this point that it's ludicrous.
I find that "holding back" is a weak excuse on par with "he wasn't really trying to win".

Jabroniville
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by Jabroniville » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:31 pm

Shock wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:51 pm
I find that "holding back" is a weak excuse on par with "he wasn't really trying to win".
Agreed- but, the pics shown DID indicate that Ben could KO the Hulk with a good shot or two (in a few cases where the Hulk was surprised), and there was a showcase of them arm-wrestling and having it always be a draw. And back in the Silver Age, Spider-Man got a 100% legit win over the Hulk (webbing him up to the point where he couldn't escape after stunning him)- ol' Jade Jaws was not that strong back in the day.

RUSCHE
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Re: Idol of Millions

Post by RUSCHE » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:18 pm

I just want Ben to be given the respect he deserves. He should always be treated as a threat due to his skill,power and most importantly his will to never give up. I would take him over Hercules any day, not due to his power bet he truly does not understand the meaning of the word quit.

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