What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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greycrusader
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:06 pm

Ken wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:12 am
Besides the fact that their deaths were just FUBAR, what I'm also referring to is that Nite-Owl *IS* the Blue Beetle and Rorshach *IS* the Question.

The whole "'The Watchmen' started as a pitch for "what to do with the Charlton heroes'" is pretty well known by now, so unless someone asks... But while some of the Watchmen characters were pretty radically changed (Dr. Manhattan isn't that similar to Captain Atom), but Dan Dreiberg and Archie being stand-ins for Ted Kord and the Bug are blatent. Same with Rorshach being based on the Question.

The whole notion of bringing the stand-ins into the DCU is just....
From what I've read, all the pre-1977 versions of the Charlton characters are in public domain because the company failed to file proper copyright protections, save for The Human Thunderbolt, whose rights reverted to his creator's estate. Not much of an issue with DC's version of Captain Atom, who was fairly far-removed from the SA character anyway, but the others could hypothetically be used by other customers right down to their original appearances, backgrounds, and supporting casts. The same holds for the Fawcett (except for the Marvel Family) and Quality heroes, which is why a decade or so back DC basically killed off in-universe a slew of these characters and replaced them with legacy versions, or else drastically altered their costumes and power-sets.

All my best.

MacynSnow
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow » Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:48 pm

greycrusader wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:06 pm
Ken wrote:
Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:12 am
Besides the fact that their deaths were just FUBAR, what I'm also referring to is that Nite-Owl *IS* the Blue Beetle and Rorshach *IS* the Question.

The whole "'The Watchmen' started as a pitch for "what to do with the Charlton heroes'" is pretty well known by now, so unless someone asks... But while some of the Watchmen characters were pretty radically changed (Dr. Manhattan isn't that similar to Captain Atom), but Dan Dreiberg and Archie being stand-ins for Ted Kord and the Bug are blatent. Same with Rorshach being based on the Question.

The whole notion of bringing the stand-ins into the DCU is just....
From what I've read, all the pre-1977 versions of the Charlton characters are in public domain because the company failed to file proper copyright protections, save for The Human Thunderbolt, whose rights reverted to his creator's estate. Not much of an issue with DC's version of Captain Atom, who was fairly far-removed from the SA character anyway, but the others could hypothetically be used by other customers right down to their original appearances, backgrounds, and supporting casts. The same holds for the Fawcett (except for the Marvel Family) and Quality heroes, which is why a decade or so back DC basically killed off in-universe a slew of these characters and replaced them with legacy versions, or else drastically altered their costumes and power-sets.

All my best.
I personally see DC's reasoning behind it(they could really do what they wanted with them at that point),i just can't agree with wasting that Many good character ideas....

add to the Fact that Marvel is trying to do the same thing with Their New Universe characters now and it just makes me miss the 80's&90's more(true,the 90's were Pretty bad,Marvel&DC wise,but at least it was better than all THIS Drivel...and that's saying something!).

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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:54 pm

So, am I reading this right and DC just merged Post-Crisis Superman and Nu-52 Superman together, along with both Lois Lanes being merged together? And supposedly this is going to cause aspects of both Post Crisis DC and the Nu-52 to merge together?

I mean, if they use this to retcon a lot of stupid stuff and keep what worked from both settings, more power to them. But this sounds more likely to just create an even more confused and disjointed setting.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Miracle » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:56 am

Don't worry, they'll retcon it in a year :P

Ken
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm

I thought they killed Nu-52 Superman, and had the suppossed Post-Crisis Superman take his place.


I swear, the only place to find a DC Universe that is recognisable as the DC Universe is in "Scooby Doo Team-Up".
Zack Snyder in the 1940s: Hope vs Crosby, Road to Justice

Shock
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:01 pm

Why can't there be just one Superman?

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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:11 pm

Ken wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm
I thought they killed Nu-52 Superman, and had the suppossed Post-Crisis Superman take his place.
Apparently the explanation is "Mr. Myx shenanigans".
Shock wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:01 pm
Why can't there be just one Superman?
It seems to be what they're trying to do, merge the Pre-Flashpoint and Nu-52 Supermen into one Best Of Superman. Allegedly.
I swear, the only place to find a DC Universe that is recognisable as the DC Universe is in "Scooby Doo Team-Up".
As the last place I got to see Captain Marvel, let me just say "Preach on".

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:24 pm

Ares wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:11 pm
It seems to be what they're trying to do, merge the Pre-Flashpoint and Nu-52 Supermen into one Best Of Superman. Allegedly.
But why is that even necessary? Just say "This is Superman" and let him go. Who cares which F-d up continuity he came from?

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:28 pm

Ares wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:11 pm
It seems to be what they're trying to do, merge the Pre-Flashpoint and Nu-52 Supermen into one Best Of Superman. Allegedly.
VERY allegedly. The only way "Nu-52 Superman" and "Best of Superman" belong together in one sentence is if the sentence is "__________ is the exact opposite of the ____________".
Zack Snyder in the 1940s: Hope vs Crosby, Road to Justice

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:35 pm

Ares wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:11 pm
Ken wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:22 pm
I swear, the only place to find a DC Universe that is recognisable as the DC Universe is in "Scooby Doo Team-Up".
As the last place I got to see Captain Marvel, let me just say "Preach on".
It's also the last place I saw Hawkman and Hawkgirl. AND last week I picked up four "Sccoby-Doo Team-Up" issues, and 3 of them were DC centric (4th was Space Ghost), and I saw J'onn J'onzz looking like J'onn. and Zatanna. And Deadman and Phantom Stranger. And the Spectre. AND each of them had a host of alien heroes (J'onn issue), magician heroes (Zatanna), and ghost heroes (Deadman/Phantom Stranger). Except for using the animated cartoon version of Starfire, they were using the classic versions of Ultra, the Mikal Tomas Starman, Jemm, Doctor Fate, Zatara, Sargon, Ibis, Warlock the Wizard(?!), Grim Ghost, Spectre, Kid Eternity, the Ghost Patrol(!?) and that's just the ones off the top of my head from comics I read last week.

And J'onn was J'onn. In all of his blue-trunks, no-trousered glory. It was AWESOME!!!
Zack Snyder in the 1940s: Hope vs Crosby, Road to Justice

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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:10 am

Has anyone been keeping up with Captain America / Steve Rogers? Because I need some clarification on something I found online.

So, there's the ongoing plot about Cap being a Hydra Agent. When it was first revealed, the writer made it clear that Steve Rogers had always been a Hydra Agent this whole time, and that there would be no dancing around that. And the Red Skull basically being a strawman for anti-SJWs. So the people that weren't mad about this were rolling their eyes at the stupidity and waiting for it to get changed back.

Well, they quickly revealed that the Red Skull had done something to Steve with a Cosmic Cube, so it was a retcon. So while Steve technically had been a Hydra Agent this whole time, it was only due to a cosmic retcon.

But then apparently within the last month, the other shoe dropped and apparently, we've got multiple retcons going on at once.

Supposedly, the entire Marvel Universe has been living in a retcon since World War II. Back in WWII, the Nazis were winning, and winning so much that instead of the atomic bomb, the only way the world could be saved was by using the Cosmic Cube to retcon a win for the Allies. And a big part of that retcon was Captain America, because in the original timeline, Cap WAS a Hydra agent and helped Hydra win the war. So the universe that we've been reading about existed because America used a cosmic retcon button to make Cap a hero of America rather than a hero for Hydra. So when the Red Skull made Cap a Hydra agent today, it wasn't him messing with Cap's head, it was giving Cap his original personality.

Is this accurate? Because if it is, this is really, really, REALLY stupid. I don't care if the next writer retcons this all away, this is supremely dumb.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:51 am

Yeah, I was all basically "it's a Cosmic Cube- don't worry about it", but the continued use of SamCap, PLUS this whole Retcon thing, is making me think that Spencer (who wrote the VERY good Sinister Foes of Spider-Man, so I know he CAN write) just doesn't have any idea what he's doing, and is actively trying to piss off the fanbase. Trying to pull that off for real is a "Clone Saga" all over again, and would cause irreparable harm to the character.

Now, I'm going to assume that someone who's NOT an idiot is going to re-re-retcon the whole thing away and be like "haha, FOOOOOOOOOOOOOLED YOU!!!" Because it's almost clever to go "well the Nazis were winning, so the Allies cheated", so long as that's revealed as a lie and you don't ruin one of your flagship characters for no damn reason.

But seriously, this AND the X-Men Gold thing within a couple of months? I'm thinking Alex Alonso might have his head on the chopping block for this.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:35 pm

Isn't this the sort of thing they used to put in a What if? Comic instead of butchering a top comic for several years?

MacynSnow
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by MacynSnow » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:27 pm

Ares wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:10 am
Has anyone been keeping up with Captain America / Steve Rogers? Because I need some clarification on something I found online.

So, there's the ongoing plot about Cap being a Hydra Agent. When it was first revealed, the writer made it clear that Steve Rogers had always been a Hydra Agent this whole time, and that there would be no dancing around that. And the Red Skull basically being a strawman for anti-SJWs. So the people that weren't mad about this were rolling their eyes at the stupidity and waiting for it to get changed back.

Well, they quickly revealed that the Red Skull had done something to Steve with a Cosmic Cube, so it was a retcon. So while Steve technically had been a Hydra Agent this whole time, it was only due to a cosmic retcon.

But then apparently within the last month, the other shoe dropped and apparently, we've got multiple retcons going on at once.

Supposedly, the entire Marvel Universe has been living in a retcon since World War II. Back in WWII, the Nazis were winning, and winning so much that instead of the atomic bomb, the only way the world could be saved was by using the Cosmic Cube to retcon a win for the Allies. And a big part of that retcon was Captain America, because in the original timeline, Cap WAS a Hydra agent and helped Hydra win the war. So the universe that we've been reading about existed because America used a cosmic retcon button to make Cap a hero of America rather than a hero for Hydra. So when the Red Skull made Cap a Hydra agent today, it wasn't him messing with Cap's head, it was giving Cap his original personality.

Is this accurate? Because if it is, this is really, really, REALLY stupid. I don't care if the next writer retcons this all away, this is supremely dumb.
The above paragraph is the reason I don't buy Comics as a whole anymore.

Now to play "Devil's advocate" again(I know you all LOVE it when I do that here,so let me get behind my shield...:) ) : I could conceivably see the reasoning behind the whole "Allies cheat to win WW2" angle,as that hadn't been done before and would make for an interesting read. They Still could've had Cap as an Allied Soldier,though. I mean,let's face it: During WW2,The Nazi's had enough spies in America to Start their own town(which they actually did in Continuty!),so they could've gotten the Super soldier serum plans and made their own....

I've alway's personally disliked the "Cosmic Cube retcon/Writer's pen" bit they alway's did in Cap's book,as I felt it was a crutch new Writer's used to either save their job's(Look at the 90's "Cap dying" Storyline for a good example of this BS) or Brown-nose the Current Editor-in-chief(Turning The Winter Soldier into a Good Guy is a good one on this). Unfortunately,it's become such a Cap Mainstay that the Current Writer for the Book is all but Guaranteed to use it at least in one storyline before they leave the book. OK,I will admit that a couple of them were rather neat in how they approached The Ultimate McGuffin(I liked the idea that it could only be used ounce every 10 years by the current wielder), but it's still too much of a Writer's Crutch in my opinion...

greycrusader
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by greycrusader » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:37 am

<<SIGH>>

And I though the whole "Superboy from Earth-Prime punches through time/space and resets the history of the DC Universe" was ridiculous...

The above approach would make for a novel twist to a science fiction story or an indie superhero universe without such a massive character history and reader investment. For Captain America and the mainstream Marvel Universe, it is an affront and an absurd complication.

BTW: This ISN'T the first time the MU has been "rebooted"-even disregarding the recent Secret Wars, The Sentry supposedly did this to incorporate himself into the timeline of Earth's major heroes, then there was the smaller scale Avengers/Invaders thing from a while back, the destruction/resurrection of the universe during PAD's failed Captain Marvel title, and the Scarlet Centurion (an alt-Kang the Conquerer) mucking about with the timeline decades ago...

For what its worth, this WILL soon be consigned to comics oblivion, just like the Gwen Stacy-Norman Osborn love children, Ben Reilly being the "Real Spider-Man", The Falcon once being a pimp, The Wakandan Nation concealing the cure for cancer from the world, etc, etc.

All my best.

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