What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

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Ares
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 am

In other news, Marvel is bringing back Iceman and Unstoppable Wasp later this year, two books that had been canceled due to low sales only after being allowed to linger on far longer than they would have had this not been the era of the diversity push. The claim is that they're back by "popular demand", but to me that translates as "a vocal minority were calling us bigots for cancelling books with minorities, women and LGBT leads, so we caved and brought back books that we were overshipping to begin with". And most of the other canceled characters were put onto Avengers West, which to me is the way to save that concept if you want to give it a try: Make a single book with all of those characters in it and see if that can't save it. If it can't, if all of the fans of those characters together can't keep a book above 20,000 sales, then maybe those characters and concepts aren't as popular with the actual comic audience.

Then again, we also get articles like this: https://www.cbr.com/hollywood-not-china ... sentation/ :roll:

I'm so sick of this song and dance. I'm sick of the state of modern journalism (mainstream, video game, comic book), I'm sick of the outrage culture/professional victims, I'm sick of good characters being placed in lesser hands, I'm sick of the skewed priorities, I'm just . . . sick of it.

Add on top of that the fact that Johns will keep his Curse of Shazam version of the Marvel Family going, and I don't know. It makes me want to try something. Nothing harmful to anyone, but there's projects I've had in mind that might actually pay off in other ways, help me get my opinion out there. Might have to give that a shot.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ken » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:20 am

I've been considering doing stories about Willy Watson who becomes Captain Miracle by shouting a magic word. Giving full credit to Parker and Beck. But basically using the character that DC isn't using anymore.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by L-Space » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:43 am

New look and writer for Batgirl. Not a big fan of the mask, but the rest of the costume looks good.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:53 am

It's better than the motorcycle leathers at least, and looks like an actual superhero costume for the most part. I agree on not being a fan of the mask tho, and frankly, I just wonder at why they keep feeling the need to re-invent the wheel.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:58 am

L-Space wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:43 am
New look and writer for Batgirl. Not a big fan of the mask, but the rest of the costume looks good.
I like the costume, for the most part, but would prefer to see the traditional cowl instead of the domino-mask. But I’m just so happy to see the Burnside costume get ditched... So I’ll take what I can get. The cape seems a bit too short too, almost I’m not sure what the purpose of having a backpack is when they’ve also given her an oversized utility belt. But it’s a fun nod to her 1967 era Bat-Purse, with a more modern and practical design.

Mairghread Scott is not a writer whose work I know. OTOH, she does actually have some history in the comics business (she used to do Transformers for IDW) and I believe she also used to write for one of the more recent Marvel cartoons. So, she’s new, but not a complete outsider who they brought in for positive Tumblr buzz *cough* Zoë Quinn *cough* or national media headlines *cough* Ta-Neshi Coates *cough*

We’ll see how this plays out.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:04 am

But, like Ares said, this was a costume where the got it right the first time (especially once they dropped the purse). Why muck it up?

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by L-Space » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:06 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:58 am

Mairghread Scott is not a writer whose work I know. OTOH, she does actually have some history in the comics business (she used to do Transformers for IDW) and I believe she also used to write for one of the more recent Marvel cartoons. So, she’s new, but not a complete outsider who they brought in for positive Tumblr buzz *cough* Zoë Quinn *cough* or national media headlines *cough* Ta-Neshi Coates *cough*

We’ll see how this plays out.
Heh, first thing I did was look up her work history to see if she had actual comic experience. Transformers comic, various comic based cartoons, and some 3rd party comics.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:13 am

I understand that every comic book writer had a “first book” at some point. I also understand that B- and C-List books are where the publishers are going to put new talent to “make their bones” before giving them the A-List books... and I have no illusions that Batgirl is every going to be anything but a B-List (at best) book.

But I really hate the comic book equivalent of “stunt casting” that the publishers have been going lately. Giving people with zero comic book experience their own solo projects with established titles (and often A-list books to boot!) just doesn’t seem to be about anything other than PR these days.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:22 pm

I'm quite happy to see the end of the Burnside costume. It made no sense for her to have a rookie style costume when she's an experienced hero with lots of money. But the new look is very similar to the look she has in some of the flashbacks to her early days, which still makes her look young and inexperienced. It makes me think they're not sure on how old they want her to be.

On the plus side, the writer at least seems to have a plan and not an agenda. And I hope the "not grimdark" prediction turns out to be reality.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Post-Flashpoint Barbara Gordon is a college undergrad who contemplated dropping out of college more than once. She’s in her nebulously early-twenties :|

Pre-Flashpoint / Post-Crisis Barbara Gordon was a university graduate with a master's degree in library and information science. She was a librarian, but never the head of the Gotham City Library. She’s in her nebulously mid-twenties. :roll:

Pre-Crisis Barbara Gordon held a doctorate, was the head of the Gotham City Library, and a goddamn United States Senator! It’s a very minor plot point that she was not yet thirty when she ran for office (she had to use an obscure [and fictional] law to qualify) but she had a birthday in at least one issue afterward. Pre-Crisis Barbara Gordon was in her nebulously mid- to late-thirties as of Crisis. ;)

For some reason, neither DC Comics not Marvel will allow any woman comic book — except Aunt May and Granny Goodness — to be older than 29. You’re lucky if they let you be older than 25.

(You’re also usually never younger than 16 or older than a toddler. Childhood and puberty don’t exist. One day your just learning how to walk and talk, the next you’ve got fantastic legs, killer abs, and a great rack. Instant kung fu skills and acrobatic talent usually get uploaded around the same time.)
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:56 pm

The Burnside costume (and indeed most of the Burnside story lines) are a much better fit for Stephanie Brown than Babs. I just sort of lie to myself and pretend that I’m reading the further adventures of Pre-Flashpoint Steph when I read the Burnside stories.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:08 pm

To be fair, DC generally seemed to have the idea idea that Superman and Batman started their hero careers in their early-to-mid 20's, and that as "experienced heroes", they're in their mid-30's. Heroes of a comparable experience (Barry, Hal, Diana, Ollie) are in a similar age group.

Young-but-experienced heroes who started adventuring with their mentors in their mid-teens (Dick, Wally, Donna) are now in their mid-twenties.

As someone who started out in her early 20's but after Clark and Bruce were established, Barbara would probably be in her late twenties/early 30's.

And then you have the teen heroes who started out as teens and are still in their mid-to-late teenage years.

And then you've got the rare case of Billy Batson who started at late childhood and aged up to mid-to-late teens.

Keeping the exact age somewhat flexible prevents a lot of continuity errors and allows writers to sort of write the hero at the age they think is appropriate without impacting things to much.

And generally speaking, comic characters don't really age by year, but jump an "age category" at a certain point. I'm okay with Bruce, Clark, Steve and Tony all forever being in their "mid-to-late 30s".

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Batgirl III » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:12 pm

The issue there is that Pre-Crisis always had a slight “Mrs. Robinson” vibe to the flirtation between Batgirl and Robin. Dick was a high school student until 1969, when O’Neil and Adams shipped him off to Hudson University... Babs has her Ph.D. and job as Head Librarian in her 1967 debut.

A few years later, when she was living in Washington D.C. as a Senator, Barbara’s good friend Bruce Wayne would set her up on a date with his other good friend, Clark Kent.

Pre-Crisis Batgirl is clearly younger than the Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman, but she’s also clearly older than the Teen Titans. She’s more in that “age category” of the younger-but-still-mature-adult range as Oliver Queen, Kara Zor-El, Hal Jordan, and Barry Allen.
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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Ares » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:01 pm

And in other news, we have Exiles #4:

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an issue that took the goofy 1960s Fantastic Four story about Ben Grimm becoming a pirate for an issue, and use it to talk about slavery and the atomic bomb. Namely portraying the dropping the atomic bomb as an unforgivably evil act that America should not have done, and portraying slavery as the result of white guys in powdered wigs going into Africa, ambushing single individuals and taking them back to their ship as slaves.

:roll:

You know, the original Exiles series was about a group of people jumping from universe to universe, exploring things like "What if Jean Grey hadn't sacrificed herself?" or "What if the Skrulls invaded in the 1880s and turned superheroes that emerged 100 years later into gladiators" or similar stories. They had fun with Marvel history and told some entertaining alternate side-stories.

I can ignore historical inaccuracies when it comes to pirates, because pirate fiction has a long history of being light entertainment. Same as cowboy fiction and so on. Because these are fantastic versions of historical tropes and events, not actual history.

But you bring up slavery or the atomic bomb, actual historical events with a lot of human suffering involved, you'd better get your facts straight. Otherwise you simply sound like propaganda. America didn't drop the atomic bomb for any reason other than it was the lesser of two evils. You either drop two bombs and kill thousands, or you risk millions dying over the course of several years in a prolonged ground invasion. And Africa is known as the birthplace of slavery because Africans perfected the slave trade. By which I mean, black Africans would enslave other Africans and sell them to other Africans, and then to other nations and people as they were encountered. To the point where you had high volume of Muslim and Moor slavers trading in all manner of slaves, including white slaves. Europeans were not going in and stealing Africans from their home, Africans were capturing and selling their own people to anyone who could afford them. It's almost like slavery is something that pretty much every group of people on Earth has experienced at one time or another.

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Re: What's new with the big two: Marvel and DC Comics discussion thread.

Post by Shock » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:47 pm

I just read that and it wasn't remotely preachy. You seem to be projecting a bit there

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