Recycling Ideas - When is and isn't it okay?

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Ares
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Recycling Ideas - When is and isn't it okay?

Post by Ares »

So I was watching The Running Man tonight, and as is often the case, a thought occurred.

The idea of humans hunting humans for entertainment was at least codified in the story The Most Dangerous Game, but has been re-used over and over in fiction, whether it was basically adapted into the character of Kraven the Hunter or used to poke fun at television in The Running Man. Yet the idea somehow lends itself well to being reused and re-imagining, and it's rarely criticized when it gets re-used.

Similarly, the "Time Travel To Set Right What Others Have Set Wrong" idea has been reused by fiction over and over again, and while its kind of a cliche, so long as it's pulled off well, few people really complain about it.

On the other hand, Civil War 2 received a lot of criticism, not only because the story was bad and the conflict felt forced, but because the storyline was basically "Minority Report With Superheroes". And I was one of the people who rolled my eyes and leveled that criticism at the story. And in retrospect, I wonder why Civil War 2 being a recycling of "Minority Report With Superheroes" bugs me when Kraven's "The Most Dangerous Game With Superheroes" does not. Civil War 2 is not a beat for beat remake of Minority Report to the point of being a rip off, so it isn't that. I think part of the problem is that Civil War 2 doesn't really do anything new with the concept. It basically asks the same questions of Minority Report of whether or not it's okay to persecute someone for a crime they hadn't committed, to use future knowledge to try and prevent tragedies, and how that could be abused. It doesn't help that Civil War 2 isn't especially well written and none of the pop culture heroes like Spider-Man or Ms. Marvel just go "You know, this is basically like Minority Report, and you're not Tom Cruise in this version".

Side-note, but Minority Report always annoyed me because they invented this whole new concept of trying people for "Future Murder". I just looked at the TV stupidly for a moment and then said "Charge them with 'Attempted Murder'." You caught them in the act of trying to kill someone. That's called "Pres-meditated Attempted Murder". People can still go to prison for that, often for a very long time. It completely does away with the whole "we are charging them for a crime they didn't commit because they technically didn't commit murder" by simply charging them with a crime they DID commit.

Anyway, just something I thought was kind of interesting. What, to you, makes an idea okay to be reused and what makes it not okay? Broad concept vs specific idea, is it all about the execution, etc.?
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Re: Recycling Ideas - When is and isn't it okay?

Post by Jabroniville »

I think if it's a one-off storyline or one villain's concept, it's fine and fair game. When it's an ENTIRE EVENT or the entire concept behind a book... it's less good.

Minority Report is a fine parable for a story set in the future, or Wakanda or some other advanced society, where the one hero has to overcome this obviously-dumb thing. Nobody would complain if that was an arc in Captain Marvel, I think. It's idea-swiping, but it's just an arc.

HOWEVER, basing the entirety of an Event Story around it is just "we're taking this popular thing and making it a Big Giant Comic Version". The scale is entirely different, and you're expecting this to be a draw. Similarly, ripping off Battle Royale for Avengers Arena came off as a bit iffy to me, because that's... the ENTIRE COMIC. In both of these cases, you've basically taken the "I'm ripping off ______" idea and turning it into this grand-scale "LOOK AT MY AWESOME IDEA!", which seems much more egregious than giving Spider-Man one enemy based off of The Most Dangerous Game.
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Re: Recycling Ideas - When is and isn't it okay?

Post by Woodclaw »

Ares wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:07 am So I was watching The Running Man tonight, and as is often the case, a thought occurred.

The idea of humans hunting humans for entertainment was at least codified in the story The Most Dangerous Game, but has been re-used over and over in fiction, whether it was basically adapted into the character of Kraven the Hunter or used to poke fun at television in The Running Man. Yet the idea somehow lends itself well to being reused and re-imagining, and it's rarely criticized when it gets re-used.

Similarly, the "Time Travel To Set Right What Others Have Set Wrong" idea has been reused by fiction over and over again, and while its kind of a cliche, so long as it's pulled off well, few people really complain about it.

On the other hand, Civil War 2 received a lot of criticism, not only because the story was bad and the conflict felt forced, but because the storyline was basically "Minority Report With Superheroes". And I was one of the people who rolled my eyes and leveled that criticism at the story. And in retrospect, I wonder why Civil War 2 being a recycling of "Minority Report With Superheroes" bugs me when Kraven's "The Most Dangerous Game With Superheroes" does not. Civil War 2 is not a beat for beat remake of Minority Report to the point of being a rip off, so it isn't that. I think part of the problem is that Civil War 2 doesn't really do anything new with the concept. It basically asks the same questions of Minority Report of whether or not it's okay to persecute someone for a crime they hadn't committed, to use future knowledge to try and prevent tragedies, and how that could be abused. It doesn't help that Civil War 2 isn't especially well written and none of the pop culture heroes like Spider-Man or Ms. Marvel just go "You know, this is basically like Minority Report, and you're not Tom Cruise in this version".
I think that there is a difference between basing a character and an event on an existing premise.
Stan Lee himself often quoted Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as the main inspiration behind the Hulk (especially the original grey version). In general, I think that using an existing idea as the template for a character often gives more freedom of movement because you can still add elements to it, whereas with a story characters are often just replaying the same moves.
It doesn't help that we live in a time of "excessive audience awareness", whereas any new idea put on paper is often dissected a scrutinized until there's nothing left.
Ares wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:07 amSide-note, but Minority Report always annoyed me because they invented this whole new concept of trying people for "Future Murder". I just looked at the TV stupidly for a moment and then said "Charge them with 'Attempted Murder'." You caught them in the act of trying to kill someone. That's called "Pres-meditated Attempted Murder". People can still go to prison for that, often for a very long time. It completely does away with the whole "we are charging them for a crime they didn't commit because they technically didn't commit murder" by simply charging them with a crime they DID commit.
I'd contend that the entire concept was actually used for years in Judge Dredd, ever since they introduced the pre-cog judges from Psi-Division during the Search for Judge Child epic.
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Re: Recycling Ideas - When is and isn't it okay?

Post by Scots Dragon »

The answer is a simple one; are they doing something good and interesting with the concept in the context it is presented?

And then move on to apply this to literally every work of fiction ever because very little of it is actually new. We exist in a world where a lot of the ideas have been taken up, and the old methods of storytelling, of iteration and reinvention of existing material, have been made very difficult to make work due to copyright. Reusing and recycling ideas isn't just okay at its core, it's how storytelling works and has always worked.

To use a popular example, it's pretty hard to argue against the assertion that the original Captain Marvel wasn't very strongly inspired by Superman in costume, powerset, and overall aura. They're even performing similar actions on the cover of their first appearance. It was, after all, enough to cause a lengthy lawsuit between Fawcett Comics and National Allied Publications at the time.

Image

However, it's impossible to argue that Captain Marvel didn't do something interesting and well-implemented with the concept, arguably going on to inspire an entire hero archetype of his own in the process with follow-ups like Marvelman (or Miracleman), Mighty Man, and a few others who had a whole transformation gimmick going on. Hell, that's pretty much the default assumption for classic British superheroes. The stories featuring Captain Marvel are really fun and interesting, and the Power of Hope short by Paul Dini and Alex Ross is something I'd file under 'basic superhero reading'.


I would also argue, perhaps controversially, that almost as much originality exists in the character of the Sentry. A version of the concept plagued with mental health issues and dissociative identity disorder, leading to the fact that he in fact manifests as his own greatest villain. The idea that he was this great hero who was (deliberately) forgotten by the rest of the world.

The difference is not actually grounded in whether the character's original or not, but in execution. He's a retconned-in bullshit character who is presented as this oh-so-special hero of the Marvel Universe without having earned any of it, who had sex with Rogue and who could calm the Hulk, gave Spider-Man his big break, and is a scientific colleague of Reed Richards. I'm loath at this point to call any character a Mary Sue on principle due to that concept being overused and often misapplied, but if it applies anywhere it applies to the Sentry.


That's just my 2p on the issue, anyway. It's all about context.

Civil War 2 sucks because it sucks. Not because it's copying Minority Report. Hell, I'd argue the only reason we care about the fact that it's copying Minority Report at all is that it sucks so much that we're searching for a reason why, and we settle on the obvious big overriding issue combined with the ingrained 'originality is good, unoriginality is bad' thing.
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