DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

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Ares
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DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:17 pm

I've heard some say that The Doomsday Clock is basically the last gasp of the Nu-52, that it's ultimately a rejection of the kind of superhero setting Watchmen set up, and will be a return to more traditional DC storytelling after.

And my GOD do I hope it's true, because between it and Heroes in Crisis, I'm sick of how . . . well, broken superhero comics seem. Heroes in Crisis basically turns everyone into broken individuals on the verge of collapse. The Doomsday Clock has the DCU being called a "simpler" place than the Watchmen universe, and contains an entire page of Ozymandias railing about how little the heroes of the DCU have done to fix their world. There's also The Supermen Theory which claims that the reason most superheroes in the DCU are American is because the US government is creating them as part of some scheme, and apparently it's at least partially true.

I HATE stuff like this. Instead of just saying that non-American heroes exist, showing and creating them, they have to come up with some in-story reason for this, beyond, you know, most superhero comic writers are American and set the stories in America.

If Heroes in Crisis and Doomsday Clock are the top of the hill we need to get over before we get back to something resembling the pre-Identity Crisis DCU, I'm willing to grit my teeth through it. But dear Lord in Heaven this is a slog.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by MacynSnow » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:06 pm

Your mountain climbing analogue is Spot on,IMHO. If DC and Marvel would just Wake up and realize their destroying the very medium they work in,we could actually save it in time.
Did you know that certain DC/Marvel Writers&Artists haven't been able to find work afterward BECAUSE of what they did to Beloved Comic Characters and have gone on record saying that they should've been stopped by their Editors,but wasn't due to the Execs over-rulling it?

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Wed Oct 10, 2018 4:58 pm

I mean, if they use this as a way to have more heroes around the globe, I'm all for that, but we shouldn't really have needed it in the first place. DC already had a tone of lesser known heroes and international heroes it could simply bring back and/or re-invent and had plenty of global teams around the world WITHOUT having to have this crapsack world scenario where it's odd about how many superheroes are American.

I mean, if Geoff Johns, James Robinson and others can stop killing off lesser known heroes simply for shock value.

Here's an idea: hire one or more people specifically to go through the vast history of DC Comics. Find every minority and non-American hero you can, create a giant spreadsheet with them, and then work with some of your best creative minds to turn them into actually decent heroes. Break out the Milestone heroes, the Global Guardians, the Great 10, every non-American member of the Justice League International/Europe, the Ultramarine Corps, characters from Bloodlines and the Planet DC initiative like the Janissary, the old Super Powers/Super Friends ethnic heroes and actually work on revamping them and making them a part of the universe. I would bet folding money you could easily create an expanded setting with many global heroes with what already is there.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:34 am

Latest issue of Doomsday Clock is out. I want this series and Heroes in Crisis to both end.


Spoiler Warning.


They bring up Darkseid and the Anti-Monitor as examples of who the heroes have defeated in the past, and . . . Dr. Manhattan just proceeds to basically walk all over every superhero in the DCU that isn't named Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman. He casually destroys a Green Lantern ring. He absorbs magical energy, comes up with a techno-babble explanation for it and uses it to casually toss around folks like Dr. Fate and Zatanna. He casually smacks around the Nu-Shazam kids. Dr. Martin Stein is effectively turned into a villain. Firestorm is able to harm Manhattan a little, and Captain Atom is able to basically disintegrate him . . . only for Manhattan to casually reform and just as casually knock everyone out.

Meanwhile, Lex Luthor approaches Lois Lane to reveal that Wally West, who is apparently dead, is actually important. Batman is trying to warn the team sent to confront Manhattan that this is potentially a trap. Wonder Woman tries to calm the UN when Black Adam shows up with several supervillains to make his move.

It's very bleak, and Gary Frank's art just adds to the bleakness. Frank's art should frankly (heh) never be used for traditional superhero comics, because intentional or not, his art feels like it's a deconstruction of classic superheroes. It worked great for Supreme Power, but it just doesn't work for Batman or Superman.

And there's STILL 3 more issues to go.

The idea that Dr. Manhattan is somehow a threat rivaling Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor is just weird to me. In his own setting, Manhattan basically only came off as a godlike because he was the only superpowered guy on the planet. They even admitted he couldn't stop all of the nukes that could be launched by the Russians at once, but he's basically being treated like he's the Beyonder.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Davies » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:30 am

Ares wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:34 am

The idea that Dr. Manhattan is somehow a threat rivaling Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor is just weird to me. In his own setting, Manhattan basically only came off as a godlike because he was the only superpowered guy on the planet. They even admitted he couldn't stop all of the nukes that could be launched by the Russians at once, but he's basically being treated like he's the Beyonder.
Devil's advocating -- and if I dislike this book less than Heroes in Crisis, it's a very narrow race -- I should point out that (a) there's an unreliable narrator aspect to that statement re: the missiles, as Professor Glass may or may not have had an accurate picture of what Dr. Manhattan could do when pressed, and (b) the version of the character who appears in this series is a version who has had an unquantifiable time period to develop his faculties since last we saw him.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:53 am

Davies wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:30 am
Ares wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:34 am

The idea that Dr. Manhattan is somehow a threat rivaling Darkseid or the Anti-Monitor is just weird to me. In his own setting, Manhattan basically only came off as a godlike because he was the only superpowered guy on the planet. They even admitted he couldn't stop all of the nukes that could be launched by the Russians at once, but he's basically being treated like he's the Beyonder.
Devil's advocating -- and if I dislike this book less than Heroes in Crisis, it's a very narrow race -- I should point out that (a) there's an unreliable narrator aspect to that statement re: the missiles, as Professor Glass may or may not have had an accurate picture of what Dr. Manhattan could do when pressed, and (b) the version of the character who appears in this series is a version who has had an unquantifiable time period to develop his faculties since last we saw him.
Fair point, but it's odd to me that Dr. Manhattan could be considered a threat on par with Darkseid, let alone the Anti-Monitor. I tended to view Manhattan as more akin to Dr. Solar of Valiant Comics, who was incredibly powerful, able to destroy a planet if he'd absorbed enough power from a star, but was likewise someone who wasn't really more powerful than the Silver Surfer in practice. It's clear that they've made Manhattan way more powerful than anything he did in the original Watchmen series, but it still just strikes me as weird.

That said, there are implications that Manhattan isn't the one truly behind all of this, so who knows?

I will say that, much like a Doomsday Clock, I keep checking my watch to see if this story is over yet.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Voltron64 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:28 am

Nonetheless, I think that whole sequence shows that raw power obviously wasn't going to take out Osterman. I feel it could confirm a theory I've had since the beginning, that Superman vs Dr. Manhattan is not going to be a fist fight, but an ethical debate about hope. The man-god who has lost his humanity against the man-god who embodies hope and altruism.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:39 am

So the latest issue just came out.

They reveal who the killer is.

My initial response was very profanity laden, but I took a deep breath and decided to dial it back.

Instead, let me say this:

This comics sucks. It is a complete waste of a solid artist, it is apparently this long diatribe against receiving therapy as Tom King decides to break and deconstruct the DCU in an effort to make them as broken as himself. I know King says he suffers from his own PTSD and wanted to use these characters to explore that, but you don't take these iconic characters and break them so that they're as messed up as you are. At best, you pull a Watchmen and tell your own story far away from these heroes so you don't screw with characters who have a fanbase.

Tom King doesn't just kill a lot of characters, he DESTROYS them.

Dan DiDio needs to go. He needs to go now, because any editor worth his salt would have stopped this series before it ever happened.

Now maybe this final issue will make it all just a dream, or the murderer will somehow undo it, but this was not worth the paper it was printed on. It does not need to exist.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Chris Brady » Wed May 01, 2019 9:03 pm

Ares, this is EXACTLY what Didio always wanted though. His dream was to turn DC into a Marvel that only he remembers.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:08 am

So Heroes in Crisis is finally, FINALLY over. I'd call it a hot bag of garbage, but I feel that would be an insult to heated sacks of refuse. Tom King should not have been allowed to project his own mental hangups onto the heroes of the DCU.

Doomsday Clock is . . . weird. I hate the idea they keep putting out that Superman is somehow the center of the universe, or in this case, the Meta-Verse that shapes the Multi-Verse, and that you alter the multiverse by altering Superman. It's very "in your face" metatextual about how writers alter the face of the DCU by how they write Superman, how Superman effectively sets the tone of the DCU. It's the kind of BS that Grant Morrison couldn't pull off on even his best, balls trippingest, high as a kite-est days. And if he can't pull that off, Johns didn't have a chance.

I mean, how does that even make sense, in setting? The universe exists for 4 billion years, we have numerous heroes since the dawn of humanity, yet the entire fabric of existence is centered around this one random alien raised on a random planet. This only works if Clark Kent is having the most lucid fever dream in existence or is having a full on St. Elsewhere scenario.

And yet . . . it's an oddly compelling examination of DC continuity, of how Manhattan gets to view the fractured DC timeline, from Golden Age Superman to Silver Age to Post Crisis to the Nu-52 version that Manhattan created. It's also a very interesting comparison between Manhattan and Superman, with Supes being a Man of Action (a nice nod to his original comic) while Manhattan is frequently a Man of Inaction.

And at least one bit of meta-text actually kind of works when Manhattan comments on how exhilarating it feels to change Superman, the way other writers recently have tried to put their "stamp" on Superman by changing him to fit their needs and to change the rest of the DCU. It actually critiques those writers and the general status of the DCU as a whole, how making Superman more detached from humanity resulted in the Nu-52 and is, in fact, a bad thing.

I mean, I agree, but Johns is being just a touch hypocritical given what he turned the Justice League and Captain Marvel into. You can't on one hand condemn poor choices with Superman when you're just as guilty of everything your critiquing from Infinite Crisis onto today.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:55 pm

Ares wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:08 am
So Heroes in Crisis is finally, FINALLY over. I'd call it a hot bag of garbage, but I feel that would be an insult to heated sacks of refuse. Tom King should not have been allowed to project his own mental hangups onto the heroes of the DCU.

Doomsday Clock is . . . weird. I hate the idea they keep putting out that Superman is somehow the center of the universe, or in this case, the Meta-Verse that shapes the Multi-Verse, and that you alter the multiverse by altering Superman. It's very "in your face" metatextual about how writers alter the face of the DCU by how they write Superman, how Superman effectively sets the tone of the DCU. It's the kind of BS that Grant Morrison couldn't pull off on even his best, balls trippingest, high as a kite-est days. And if he can't pull that off, Johns didn't have a chance.

I mean, how does that even make sense, in setting? The universe exists for 4 billion years, we have numerous heroes since the dawn of humanity, yet the entire fabric of existence is centered around this one random alien raised on a random planet. This only works if Clark Kent is having the most lucid fever dream in existence or is having a full on St. Elsewhere scenario.

And yet . . . it's an oddly compelling examination of DC continuity, of how Manhattan gets to view the fractured DC timeline, from Golden Age Superman to Silver Age to Post Crisis to the Nu-52 version that Manhattan created. It's also a very interesting comparison between Manhattan and Superman, with Supes being a Man of Action (a nice nod to his original comic) while Manhattan is frequently a Man of Inaction.

And at least one bit of meta-text actually kind of works when Manhattan comments on how exhilarating it feels to change Superman, the way other writers recently have tried to put their "stamp" on Superman by changing him to fit their needs and to change the rest of the DCU. It actually critiques those writers and the general status of the DCU as a whole, how making Superman more detached from humanity resulted in the Nu-52 and is, in fact, a bad thing.

I mean, I agree, but Johns is being just a touch hypocritical given what he turned the Justice League and Captain Marvel into. You can't on one hand condemn poor choices with Superman when you're just as guilty of everything your critiquing from Infinite Crisis onto today.
In more than one way this looks like something very similar to the premise of Secret Empire: a single character pretty much holding the balance of the entire universe. While this makes sense from a narrative perspective, acknowledging it in-universe pretty much equates to murdering the suspension of disbelief and shitting all over its grave.
Moreover, it blatantly ignores and ruins one of the key elements of both Superman and Captain America: the idea that they both think they're not special despite their overdeveloped sense of responsibility. Blatantly saying that these two characters are more or less single-handedly responsible for keeping their respective universes "sane" completely destroy this concept and put them on cosmic scale that isn't their place at all.
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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Shock » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 pm

It's not like this is the first time Superman's importance has been hinted at. Multiple Legion of Superheroes stories have shown the far future more or less revolves around his influence.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ares » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:37 pm

Shock wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:12 pm
It's not like this is the first time Superman's importance has been hinted at. Multiple Legion of Superheroes stories have shown the far future more or less revolves around his influence.
I never said it was the first time, only that it's stupid for a number of reasons. I tend to remark on it every time it comes up.

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Ken » Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:30 am

Superman's importance made sense when he was the first... you know back in 1938.
...

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Re: DC Comics - Heroes in Crisis & Doomsday Clock = Why so serious?

Post by Voltron64 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:54 pm

A really interesting review of the latest issue of Doomsday Clock that may or may not grant some insight.

https://aux.avclub.com/geoff-johns-reck ... 1835326649

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