The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

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RUSCHE
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by RUSCHE » Mon Nov 05, 2018 1:59 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:41 pm
Ares wrote:
Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:31 pm
I'll be the first to admit that Jane-Thor was pretty badly handled from the word go. Which is a shame because the concept actually works. Jane Foster wielding the hammer is fine, the look she had wasn't bad at all, and the idea of someone using powers that made they cancer worse was something worth exploring. They also did manage to have some high epic fights worthy of a Thor comic.

The problem was that the writer had a very specific agenda for Jane-Thor, and they bent the Thor-mythos into a pretzel trying to accommodate said agenda. Many people would point out that Eric Masterson replaced Thor for a time with little complaint, but Eric had been built up as a regular part of the Thor mythos for years, while Jane hadn't been seen in years. Likewise, Thor was outright gone, missing in action, and Eric was almost always trying to find out where Thor had gone. Eric constantly had to prove himself to the people around him, constantly had to deal with the badgering of everyone saying he didn't live up to the Thor name, had to work to improve himself and come up with his own way to be Thor, he screwed up, etc. And everyone else around him continued to act in character.

To make Jane the new Thor, they had to unconvincingly make Thor unworthy of his hammer, and then come up with this weird notion that Thor is a title, rather than just being the guy's name. She would actually get very offended if anyone called her Lady Thor or something similar, acting like she had a right to the name while the real Thor was still out there. Pretty much everyone was written out of character to either give Jane a lot of emotional validation (the people we were suppose to like and agree with) or to behave like misogynist jerks (Odin, Absorbing Man). The hammer's origin was completely re-done, with the hammer suddenly being sentient and actively liking Jane more, leading to comments about her wielding the hammer even better than Thor.

In essence, Jane became the center of the Thor mythos and had them bent and warped around her to make her the hero, instead of simply being brought into the Thor mythos as a hero the way Eric or Beta Ray Bill were.

This was actually one of the few instances where Avengers Assembled actually handled something better, where Thor gave Jane his hammer to save her life, and it turned out that she was worthy. Then they got separated and Jane continued to use the hammer until they were re-united and the current threat had passed. When it was over, Odin was so impressed with Jane and what she'd done that he gave her a weapon of her own, Thunderstrike (since there was no Eric Masterson in this show), and she was allowed to continue being a hero.

So I while I'd definitely want to retcon aspects of Jane Thor, the idea of Jane having an Asgardian weapon and being her own hero with her own name isn't a bad one. It just needs some polishing so that she doesn't break the Thor mythos by empowering her thusly.

Now America Chavez's solo series, that entire thing is getting retconned as a hallucination due to being poisoned by one of the Serpent Society.
In general the problem is that Jason Aaron decided to work the angle of Mjolnir being a fully sentient entity, rather than possessing a measure of instinct as many previous writers implied. As far as I can understand the idea was that Mjolnir was in fact a prison for a primordial Phoenix-level entity that was conned by Odin. I can see where this came from, since neither Stormbreaker nor the Thunderstrike ever showed any hint of sentience and they were the poor's man copy of the original. Still this premise pretty much piss all over the entire mythos of Thor and force us to ask: why in hell Mjolnir took a liking of Thor in the first place?
Other ignoring Thor and Mjolnir's history , they also hand waved his fight with Bor and the repair to Mjolnir with a part of Thor's soul placed in it. Poorly thought out and poorly executed in my opinion. I had no issues with Jane, just the utter wrecking they did to Thor hist history and damage to his character. He is now a early Simon Williams expy..I am tough bit watch me job to the big threat...

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ken » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:01 am

I'd show a scene where Koriand'r of Tamaran is explicitly shown to be able to bench press no more than 2 tons, and officially reset her strength level to what it was prior to the Radium Age.

I'd start using the term 'Radium Age' in the letters' pages and the like.
...

RainOnTheSun
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by RainOnTheSun » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:19 am

Ken wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:01 am
I'd show a scene where Koriand'r of Tamaran is explicitly shown to be able to bench press no more than 2 tons, and officially reset her strength level to what it was prior to the Radium Age.
Has Starfire been boxing Power Girl or something lately?

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ken » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:49 am

RainOnTheSun wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:19 am
Ken wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:01 am
I'd show a scene where Koriand'r of Tamaran is explicitly shown to be able to bench press no more than 2 tons, and officially reset her strength level to what it was prior to the Radium Age.
Has Starfire been boxing Power Girl or something lately?
Wrestling in salad oil.... I wish.

Honestly, I haven't read a new comic book with either of them in it in ages. But between 2004 and 2011 DC had been telling us that Kory was a lot, lot stronger than she had ever been prior.
...

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ares » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:03 pm

I have to admit, if I ever got to write for a Conan comic, one thing I'd do is just have Conan straight up get his ass kicked.

Now, I love Conan stories. I've read and re-read Conan way more than I have anything involving Middle-Earth or Narnia. But I always was at least a little annoyed by Howard's bias towards barbarism. There was one story where Conan fought "the best swordsman to ever sail the seas" and kicked his ass because "the greatest swordsman of civilization was less than useless against someone who fought with the ferocity of the natural world".

So I'd have someone from a civilized section of the world just straight up beat Conan in a fight. Not easily, but make it clear that this civilized guy just outfought Conan in a fair battle. And for extra pettiness, I'd make the guy a martial artist, because that would enrage a few folks I know.

That or Conan would go up against the Hyborian equivalent of the Princess Bride crew, and lose a swordfight to Not-Inego, and then lose an unarmed fight to Not-Fezzik.

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Woodclaw » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:21 am

Ares wrote:
Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:03 pm
I have to admit, if I ever got to write for a Conan comic, one thing I'd do is just have Conan straight up get his ass kicked.

Now, I love Conan stories. I've read and re-read Conan way more than I have anything involving Middle-Earth or Narnia. But I always was at least a little annoyed by Howard's bias towards barbarism. There was one story where Conan fought "the best swordsman to ever sail the seas" and kicked his ass because "the greatest swordsman of civilization was less than useless against someone who fought with the ferocity of the natural world".

So I'd have someone from a civilized section of the world just straight up beat Conan in a fight. Not easily, but make it clear that this civilized guy just outfought Conan in a fair battle. And for extra pettiness, I'd make the guy a martial artist, because that would enrage a few folks I know.

That or Conan would go up against the Hyborian equivalent of the Princess Bride crew, and lose a swordfight to Not-Inego, and then lose an unarmed fight to Not-Fezzik.
Unfortunately this was very much in line with the general feeling of the setting (i.e. barbarism is the natural and "right" state for humans). The only civilized characters that, rarely, one-uped Conan were usually people that lived at the border of civilization and were somewhere between a barbarian and a civilized man. :(
In my eyes this was often utterly ridicolus because Conan is, in many ways much more civilized than many other characters, he is extremely knoweldgeable, speaks multiple languages, knows a great deal about strategy and tactics and so on. The only really barbaric element in his character is how he eschews many of the nicities of civilization and goes straight for the core of every matter.
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Jack of Spades » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:15 pm

I'd adapt my Heroic Age plot to the Marvel Universe.

Sometime around 1990, real time, Franklin Richards started thinking things were "kewl" and "badass." He wanted his parents to put spikes on their costumes and carry guns. When Onslaught was "defeated," he just moved into Franklin's mind, continuing to nudge the poor kid toward ever darker and more violent fantasies and teasing Franklin's powers back to life.

Franklin was responsible for everything Bendis inflicted on the Marvel Universe from Avengers: Disassembled on. Sue finds kids drawings where he has himself becoming the Sentry; he made him up out of whole cloth. He "retconned" the Secret Invasion into place. He's the one who really decided there should be No More Mutants, annihilated Stamford, mind-controlled Reed and Tony and Steve into fighting, and generally screwed up the Marvel Universe out of a desire to see all his favorite heroes fight and be "badass." He even got Norman Osborn a government job.

The only one who saw through him was Loki, who arranged his own death at the hands of the Sentry to escape Franklin's narrative, then (as kid Loki) befriended Franklin and manipulated the original Avengers (who he originally assembled, and it wasn't an accident) into demonstrating the superiority of real heroes over grimdark badasses to show Franklin what real heroes are. (Because Loki always fixes the Aesir's problems, and his people are better off than they were at the start – Loki himself, less so.) Having screwed things up beyond all redemption, Franklin, with Loki's help, would reboot the Marvel Universe in a full-scale Crisis reboot that basically wipes out every "event" story since the original Infinity Gauntlet.

Close with Peter coming home to Mary Jane.
SPIDER-MAN: Thor save me from Loki's approval.
RED SHIFT: Usually Loki saves Thor.
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ares » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:50 pm

Jack of Spades wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:15 pm
I'd adapt my Heroic Age plot to the Marvel Universe.

Sometime around 1990, real time, Franklin Richards started thinking things were "kewl" and "badass." He wanted his parents to put spikes on their costumes and carry guns. When Onslaught was "defeated," he just moved into Franklin's mind, continuing to nudge the poor kid toward ever darker and more violent fantasies and teasing Franklin's powers back to life.

Franklin was responsible for everything Bendis inflicted on the Marvel Universe from Avengers: Disassembled on. Sue finds kids drawings where he has himself becoming the Sentry; he made him up out of whole cloth. He "retconned" the Secret Invasion into place. He's the one who really decided there should be No More Mutants, annihilated Stamford, mind-controlled Reed and Tony and Steve into fighting, and generally screwed up the Marvel Universe out of a desire to see all his favorite heroes fight and be "badass." He even got Norman Osborn a government job.

The only one who saw through him was Loki, who arranged his own death at the hands of the Sentry to escape Franklin's narrative, then (as kid Loki) befriended Franklin and manipulated the original Avengers (who he originally assembled, and it wasn't an accident) into demonstrating the superiority of real heroes over grimdark badasses to show Franklin what real heroes are. (Because Loki always fixes the Aesir's problems, and his people are better off than they were at the start – Loki himself, less so.) Having screwed things up beyond all redemption, Franklin, with Loki's help, would reboot the Marvel Universe in a full-scale Crisis reboot that basically wipes out every "event" story since the original Infinity Gauntlet.

Close with Peter coming home to Mary Jane.
SPIDER-MAN: Thor save me from Loki's approval.
RED SHIFT: Usually Loki saves Thor.
While I've got my own ideas for fixing Marvel and DC (involving a JLAvengers sequel), I'd happily take this.

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am

Ares wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:50 pm
While I've got my own ideas for fixing Marvel and DC (involving a JLAvengers sequel), I'd happily take this.
It's intersting that Busiek and Perez hinted that JLA/Avengers actually had some consequences in the two universe. The biggest effect on DC was that the Antimatter universe was rebuilt and Power Ring became african-american (because at the time the JLA Lantern was John Stewart), which was a pretty big deal for a super-racist character.
In the MU the consequences were a bit less immediate, but my money is on the idea that Wanda was able to delete mutants only because of the surplus energy she accumulated from the Lords of Chaos in the DCU.
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ken » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:57 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am
Ares wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:50 pm
While I've got my own ideas for fixing Marvel and DC (involving a JLAvengers sequel), I'd happily take this.
It's intersting that Busiek and Perez hinted that JLA/Avengers actually had some consequences in the two universe. The biggest effect on DC was that the Antimatter universe was rebuilt and Power Ring became african-american (because at the time the JLA Lantern was John Stewart), which was a pretty big deal for a super-racist character.
In the MU the consequences were a bit less immediate, but my money is on the idea that Wanda was able to delete mutants only because of the surplus energy she accumulated from the Lords of Chaos in the DCU.
It's pretty clear that there were some more radical consequences to JLA/Avengers. Both universes became a LOT more toxic right afterwards. It was if somehow, in the rebuilding, each universe was poisoned.

Or it was just happenstance that Quesada and Didio took the reigns of their respective fiefdoms at about that time.
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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Woodclaw » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:35 pm

Ken wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am
Ares wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:50 pm
While I've got my own ideas for fixing Marvel and DC (involving a JLAvengers sequel), I'd happily take this.
It's intersting that Busiek and Perez hinted that JLA/Avengers actually had some consequences in the two universe. The biggest effect on DC was that the Antimatter universe was rebuilt and Power Ring became african-american (because at the time the JLA Lantern was John Stewart), which was a pretty big deal for a super-racist character.
In the MU the consequences were a bit less immediate, but my money is on the idea that Wanda was able to delete mutants only because of the surplus energy she accumulated from the Lords of Chaos in the DCU.
It's pretty clear that there were some more radical consequences to JLA/Avengers. Both universes became a LOT more toxic right afterwards. It was if somehow, in the rebuilding, each universe was poisoned.

Or it was just happenstance that Quesada and Didio took the reigns of their respective fiefdoms at about that time.
I think it was just an unfortunate happenstance.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ares » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:40 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:35 pm
Ken wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:57 pm
Woodclaw wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am


It's intersting that Busiek and Perez hinted that JLA/Avengers actually had some consequences in the two universe. The biggest effect on DC was that the Antimatter universe was rebuilt and Power Ring became african-american (because at the time the JLA Lantern was John Stewart), which was a pretty big deal for a super-racist character.
In the MU the consequences were a bit less immediate, but my money is on the idea that Wanda was able to delete mutants only because of the surplus energy she accumulated from the Lords of Chaos in the DCU.
It's pretty clear that there were some more radical consequences to JLA/Avengers. Both universes became a LOT more toxic right afterwards. It was if somehow, in the rebuilding, each universe was poisoned.

Or it was just happenstance that Quesada and Didio took the reigns of their respective fiefdoms at about that time.
I think it was just an unfortunate happenstance.
Part of me still thinks Joe Q. and Dan D. are the same guy whose actual skill is disguise and schedule juggling, and who has made it his mission to break the comic industry.

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ken » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:32 am

Because Jab's thread...

Establish that at some point Luthor experimented with combining his own DNA with Superman's DNA in a clone to try to avoid the problems that resulted in the creation of the first post-Crisis Bizarro. But then he learned of Kon-El.

Then around the time Young Justice stopped being a thing, Luthor's people captured Kon-El. And they basically did an information download of everything in Kon-El's head into the Luther-Superman clone. Thus resulting in the Radium Age version of Superboy.

And thereby explaining why the two seemed like two completely different characters. Because they are.
...

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Chris Brady » Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:32 am

The pettiest thing? Make stories so good that people would rather read mine than anyone else's. Make Comics Great Again, best revenge EVER.

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Re: The most petty thing you'd do as a comics creator

Post by Ares » Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:02 pm

As I mentioned here, I hate Squirrel Girl. Or at least what the character has become. Whether it's how unbeatable she is, how fuggly she's become, or claiming that calling a land full of dinosaurs "The Savage Land" is problematic. You know, the place Jack and Stan created.

I'm also not a fan of Gwenpool, and figure this might be a good time to take jabs at her, Squirrel Girl and the Sentry.

In short, these three are teenagers from an alternate Earth, one where superheroes don't exist except in fictional media. The trio were all friends who were big superhero fans. During one of the times the Cosmic Cube was shattered, a fragment of it wound up in the trio's world. It let them see into the 616 Marvel Universe, and using 5he Cube fragment, they sent themselves into the Marvel Universe to make themselves superheroes. Sentry was a kid who was trying to reconcile his love of Silver Age comics with how dark modern comics have gotten, Gwen was someone who obsessed with comic tropes and Squirrel Girl wanted to be universally loved, never lose and always be right.

Back in their home dimension, however, their bodies are in comas and dying of radiation poisoning. Because handling a broken cosmic cube is a bad idea. What happened was that the Cube sent their minds into the MU with bodies composed of reality warping energy. That's why they get away with everything they do.

Meanwhile, some other people find the Cube shard and likewise go to the Marvel Universe. Only these people actually aren't comics fans, but they want to use the power they now have to basically reshape the universe into something they want. There's a big fight between the original trio and the new guys, with the Marvel Universe suffering from the battle, until the original trio realize that their selfishness has endangered the Mu, while the new arrivals don't care if they destroy the place in the process of making it what they want. The new arrivals are responsible for a lot of the dumber things that have happened in Marvel, from Disassembled to the Incursion to Hydra Cap.

The original trio acknowledge what they did, make a heartfelt apology to the heroes, and use their power to drag the villains back to their own world. The villains fight the entire way, and wind up making themselves braindead when they all return home.

The original trio wake up from their comas, still incredibly sick but now with a chance to recover. And their actions have actually caused energies from the 616 universe to bleed over to their world, making superheroes possible. Whether they become heroes or not themselves is left up in the air.

Meanwhile back on Marvel, various stupid stuff gets ret-gone and Marvel becomes a better place. And nobody remembers the Sentry, Squirrel Girl or Gwenpool. At all.

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