Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

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Tattooedman
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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Tattooedman » Thu May 11, 2017 2:57 am

Davies wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 5:09 am
Chap-- Ummm.

May 4, 2011 to June 1, 2011

And this was the one where I flaked out. I went over the reasons why I flaked out when I finally found the nerve to come back and try to explain why nobody'd heard a word from me for months. Understandably it's a little hard for me to review this chapter without that getting in the way.

The worst part is that, not unlike the guy who jumps off the bridge to escape all his troubles and realizes that those troubles have comparatively simple solutions when compared to the problem of surviving the fall, now that it's much too late, I can actually see ways that I could have used my discomfort writing Mallory in this situation to good effect, with her being a lot more shy around Donnie, with her running into Zalman (Jalinth even gave me a cue to put that in) or the Commander (who's scared of hurting another child) or ... well.
I was very curious to see how you planned to handle Mallory's visit, and felt bad that it was part of the cause of the "problem" per say.
Davies wrote:I think I was doing okay with Robin's luncheon with Herald Midas, and Charlie's theatre date with Trouble. (Not so much with Keller's honest attempt to have a straight-forward conversation with Zane.) I vaguely remember looking forward to see how many hints I could drop as to the identity of Trouble's swain (it's Daedelus by the way) before the penny dropped. That said, with all this happening and Charlie's later trip to visit her parents and the reveal of Wainwright's cancer ... I think that this was going to be the first really long downtime chapter, and that may have contributed to my unease.
Unfortunately sometimes you just have bits that go that way. I know it's not much help, but it's honest.
Davies wrote:Okay, time to find the positive in all this ... all that comes to mind is this piece of GM advice -- have an endgame in mind. It doesn't matter if you ever reach it. Odds are honestly pretty good that you won't! But having a long term plan gives you something to scheme towards. This particular game may have been inspired by a medium that runs low on definitive endings, but the books that are generally regarded as classics usually do have such, even if they're ambiguous ones. ("I leave it entirely in your hands", anyone?) And we should aspire to imitate those, even if we can't ever hope to achieve them.
This is something that I've always done, granted most of the time I end up pushing it back because I keep coming up with other ideas to use (which funny enough is how FORCE Ops is still going after World of Darkness). But I completely agree that having an end point for your game is definitely a good thing to have.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Tattooedman » Thu May 11, 2017 3:06 am

Arkrite wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 10:23 pm
Shock wrote:
Thu May 04, 2017 6:46 pm
4) How does Donnie stay sane?
Cigarettes, deadpan humour and the love of his little girl.
And a waterproof lighter!
Arkrite wrote:
Fri May 05, 2017 4:11 am
How would Donnie handle the thought of never seeing his kid again?
Not well.

Honestly he'd he'd be sarcastic, short with everyone and look like hell (that scruffy start of a beard [because yes Donnie's facial hair grew fairly fast, and yes I'm that kind of player] and his hair would always be look like he had bedhead and prolly need a good washing). Plus he'd be irritated he couldn't do his hover a few inches off the ground bit.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Tattooedman » Thu May 11, 2017 3:14 am

Davies wrote:
Sat May 06, 2017 6:19 am
* "Project Vengeance": Team B comes under attack from a variety of individuals who have grudges against them collectively and individually, such as Danni Chambers and Moses Nebogipfel, who have all gained superpowers from an unknown source. While they are dealing with this, one branch of the Meek launch an all-out assault against Project Freedom's headquarters. Nightmare and Wight are forced to expose themselves as Overpower and Trouble while defending themselves, ending the Taskforce's infiltration of Project Freedom. In the process, everyone on both of Project Freedom's teams learns about the Terminus portal in the basement.
This was also the adventure where Mona's treachery was going to be exposed. And I just realized that the only member of Team B who didn't know about the portal was Donnie, so the reactions to this would mostly have been from the Commander, the Old Man and Toxic.
Yeah, but Donnie's reaction would be good (a Slo-Mo for everyone. Well kind of as it would be very similar to the trick Wainwright had him do so they could question Mrs. Todd [bodies are locked down, but they can talk]) and he'd give Wainwright a serious piece of his mind even if it would get him in trouble.

Davies wrote:
Mon May 08, 2017 9:01 pm
* "Never Sleep Again": Team B is caught up in a sequence of terrifying events at Providence Asylum that result in the apparent deaths of their former team-mate Vox and Dr. Ashley Ellis, the destruction of most of the asylum and escape of many of its prisoners, and the summoning of an Elder Evil known as the Lord of Bitter Laughter. Their failure to prevent any of this is spun as a failure on the part of other heroes, such as the Freedom League, to inform the city administration of the possibility of these events.
This was intended to be a full-on, Hellboy-styled cosmic horror adventure. Note phrasing -- "caught up in a sequence of terrifying events". Not "heroically overcoming a sequence of terrifying events". You might be some of the most powerful beings on the planet, but the planet is a speck of dust suspended in a sunbeam. I'm fairly sure that Zane was going to have a second encounter with a transformed, enhanced Luna Moth, who'd remember him less than fondly. Charlie would probably be called upon to fight off a whole small army of deep ones. Donnie's stoicism would be pushed to the limit -- I have this image of a group of nutcases hissing (one word per nutcase) "her name is Mallory". Robin would probably get swallowed by something again. And Zalman, as already mentioned, would be faced with a killing choice.
I know it'd be somewhat predictable, but with how I'd built Donnie's personality I can't see him not doing something a bit violent in response. I'm thinking some kind of kinetic energy wedge through the whole group with Donnie putting a good deal more force behind it that he'd normally ever use and wouldn't worry about if he hurt them or not (and in all likelihood he probably would want them hurting).

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Tattooedman
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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Tattooedman » Thu May 11, 2017 3:15 am

And finally I'd like to say "sorry" for bombing the hell out of this thread but I really, really wanted to "catch up" with everyone.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Davies » Thu May 11, 2017 3:21 am

Completely understandable.

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Arkrite
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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Arkrite » Thu May 11, 2017 3:35 am

Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
She has acquired a powered armor suit from Japan
I've always imagined Zane being especially annoyed that he wasn't consulted on building a suit, regardless of how little time he would have had to make it ;~)

To be fair this would likely be more of a result of his other major obsession: the belief that he can fix things.
Wainwright having inoperable cancer would put him into a downward spiral that would force him to accept he couldn't do just that.
How much that would help or last for a mad scientist type? Who's to say.
But it would have limited his ambitions to a much smaller scale than it had previously.
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
Wainwright's decision was ultimately prompted by the fact that her agents inside Grant's campaign were able to discover that he had no intention of leaving her in charge of Project Freedom, and was considering shutting down the organization completely. She was left with absolutely nothing to lose.
Owch, yeah, that would do it. Lost her friends, lost those that were closest to her through her own machinations, and then losing her life's work. I can only think of one last kick that somebody could give her, but that would just be too damn dark.
Easy to see why she'd throw it all on the line.

Of course I wonder how surprised she was by how many people came with her.

Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
When I presented this outline to you, I asked you to describe how the final adventure played out, and was very pleased by the ideas that I'd gotten.
Aaaaand I wasn't one of those people.
I completely bluescreened when I thought of Zane going into the Terminus. Mostly because I can't see him surviving.
Great idea guy, good support, but he lacks mobility or sheer power. Against the forces of the terminus I just see that being a huge problem.

Of course if I was smart I would have came up with a great story about him getting separated after everything goes wrong and sneaking his way back with some survivors relying on ingenuity, illusions, cobbled together inventions, and damn lies.
Face off against unstoppable force with stealth and guile.

Instead I put the ball in Davies court.
If I remember correctly (and I might not, it was a long time ago) I told him I wasn't sure Zane would survive and left the option upto him. Honestly I just thought he'd find a good run for it.

However in the off chance he survived? Well, Zane's return to the Project to be with Rachel was something that had to happen.

I'm still shocked (and happy) that Zane came out the other side.

Jalinth's offer to have Zalman sacrifice himself was what spared Toxic's life -- sort of. (In one of my outlines, moved by forces she wot not of, she tells Omega, "You are nothing in the scheme of creation. A far greater foe awaits me" -- words spoken by another, long ago -- then is chased by him all the way to the Doom Coil, which she throws herself into, distracting him so the rest of you can make your escape.)
And this is the nightmare that would result in a deranged Zane building a time machine to save Rachel... and likely wind up reliving events over and over again unable to change them.
The way that I dealt with the way Shock had Robin refusing to enter the Terminus made for an okay bullet point, but it would have made for lousy campaigning. Here's what happened instead --
Neat.
I was thinking that the Mahoshoujodan would have been an excellent choice to drag along for such a fight, but since Robin was the only one who A) know of their true history and B) had any connections with them... Well, I didn't expect that to to happen.
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
Robin does so -- does she contact the Freedom League? The Atoms? The Mahoshoujodan? All of the above and some more people?
Amusingly all I can think of is "Nope, Robin has about as many friends as Zane" ;~)
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
"From: Mr. Infamy. Body: To think you did what I wanted without even being asked!"
Evil. I love it!
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
Needless to say, both missions are pretty disastrous, and Zalman's sacrifice is all that saves your lives. Wainwright was either going to get killed in the first engagement with Omega -- a full-powered Omega, not an injured, paralyzed one -- or was going to live long enough to call the retreat and then sacrifice her life to buy you an extra round of escape time.
In my own head cannon I'd like to think she realized the folly of her actions in time to call for a retreat, before trying to buy Zalman the time he needed to save everybody.
Sadly I don't imagine that fight took very long. Because: OhmygodOmegawe'reallgoingtodie!

Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 12:05 am
With regards to Zalman's fate, it should come as no surprise that I had no intention of having the mage killed off for real. The fire creature that the members of Project Freedom faced in the first and only episode of the reboot was supposed to be the first of four elementally-themed manifestations which were Zalman trying to pull himself back together. This was going to spread over the first few episodes, but ... I found that I still couldn't hack it, despite having taken so long a vacation. Or maybe because of it. Who knows?
Yeah, there was a lot going on in that where I wouldn't mind talking about, but I'm going to hold off for a day or two.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Shock » Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm

Arkrite wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 3:35 am
Amusingly all I can think of is "Nope, Robin has about as many friends as Zane" ;~)
Zane at least had some contacts, if not friends. He had the professional respect of Andrea Atom. Hell, I have to wonder if Zane would have thought to go to the Centurion's Sanctum and try to enlist the robot to help.
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 2:12 am
Yes, quite a bit. Also, the Freedom League maintains a toll-free hotline. Mentioning the Terminus would get her bumped to a priority receptionist, who'd be able to verify her identity and get her in touch with the League fairly easily.
I can imagine how that conversation would go. I'd be willing to bet at least one of the Freedom League would argue for closing off the portal immediately and foregoing a rescue attempt. And I'd love to see Daedalus holding the portal open and saving Zane's bacon.
Arkrite wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 3:35 am
Aaaaand I wasn't one of those people.
I completely bluescreened when I thought of Zane going into the Terminus. Mostly because I can't see him surviving.
Great idea guy, good support, but he lacks mobility or sheer power. Against the forces of the terminus I just see that being a huge problem.
I think you underestimate Zane's utility in a pitched battle. One of our biggest problems would have been crowd control. Illusions and Zane's ability to blind or other affect a large number of foes at once would have been a big part of the team's defensive capabilities.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Davies » Thu May 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Shock wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm
I can imagine how that conversation would go. I'd be willing to bet at least one of the Freedom League would argue for closing off the portal immediately and foregoing a rescue attempt. And I'd love to see Daedalus holding the portal open and saving Zane's bacon.
Seven probably would have made that argument. And yes, that is exactly what Daedelus would do.

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Arkrite
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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Arkrite » Thu May 11, 2017 10:12 pm

Shock wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm
Zane at least had some contacts, if not friends. He had the professional respect of Andrea Atom.
Well, she knew he was alive, I wouldn't guess it went further than that. Likely they would have done the same "Should we just shot the portal" dilemma.
Shock wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm
Hell, I have to wonder if Zane would have thought to go to the Centurion's Sanctum and try to enlist the robot to help.
Sadly Zane didn't (and (unless something bizzare has happened) still doesn't) know where the Sanctum is. He does know where one Centurion robot is, but it was the one in the "End of Civilization" shelter the Freedom League built.
And since it was ordered to protect the shelter, I don't think Zane would have any luck convincing it to come help.
Also they go insane in normal atmosphere.

So while I love the concept of leading an army of Centurion robots to fight Omega, I don't think Zane will be the one to pull that trick off.
Which is kind of a shame.

Shock wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm
I think you underestimate Zane's utility in a pitched battle. One of our biggest problems would have been crowd control. Illusions and Zane's ability to blind or other affect a large number of foes at once would have been a big part of the team's defensive capabilities.
Sadly the "would have" needs the emphasis.
During the switch to 3rd edition Zane lost the "blinding" ability he had, and illusion became so expensive that he could only buy four ranks of it.
So anybody who interacted with the illusion had to beat a DC14 to see through it, and the area it covered was severely limited.

Of course with Charlie, Donnie and Zalman around it didn't really seem like he needed to worry about area attacks.

Either way after the switch to 3rd edition he really became a one-on-one combatant.
Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Shock wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 1:31 pm
I can imagine how that conversation would go. I'd be willing to bet at least one of the Freedom League would argue for closing off the portal immediately and foregoing a rescue attempt. And I'd love to see Daedalus holding the portal open and saving Zane's bacon.
Seven probably would have made that argument. And yes, that is exactly what Daedelus would do.
"Quickly, it's just up ahead-" ::Trails off at seeing Daedelus holding open the gate:: "On the other hand-"
"You're going. On your feet or over my shoulder. Understood?" ::Toxic Death Glare::
::Uncomfortable cough:: "Yes, dear."

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Shock » Fri May 12, 2017 12:19 am

Davies wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Seven probably would have made that argument.
No wonder Zalman likes her so much

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Davies » Fri May 12, 2017 12:26 am

Other way around. I noted that Zalman's pragmatism had been shaping her away from her earlier idealism when they talked right before you went on the mission to the dying world ... regardless, Captain Thunder would have had the last word, and he'd have insisted on making the rescue attempt.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Shock » Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm

Arkrite wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 10:12 pm
Sadly Zane didn't (and (unless something bizzare has happened) still doesn't) know where the Sanctum is. He does know where one Centurion robot is, but it was the one in the "End of Civilization" shelter the Freedom League built.
And since it was ordered to protect the shelter, I don't think Zane would have any luck convincing it to come help.
Also they go insane in normal atmosphere.

So while I love the concept of leading an army of Centurion robots to fight Omega, I don't think Zane will be the one to pull that trick off.
Which is kind of a shame.
Ah, that's right. I have trouble remembering which of your characters was invited to whose secret hideout ;} It would probably be nerve-wracking to bring one of the Centurion robots out to fight but once you mangae to get it into the Terminus, I think having it go berserk wouldn't be all that much of an issue.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Tattooedman » Sun May 14, 2017 10:20 pm

Shock wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm
Arkrite wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 10:12 pm
Sadly Zane didn't (and (unless something bizzare has happened) still doesn't) know where the Sanctum is. He does know where one Centurion robot is, but it was the one in the "End of Civilization" shelter the Freedom League built.
And since it was ordered to protect the shelter, I don't think Zane would have any luck convincing it to come help.
Also they go insane in normal atmosphere.

So while I love the concept of leading an army of Centurion robots to fight Omega, I don't think Zane will be the one to pull that trick off.
Which is kind of a shame.
Ah, that's right. I have trouble remembering which of your characters was invited to whose secret hideout ;} It would probably be nerve-wracking to bring one of the Centurion robots out to fight but once you mangae to get it into the Terminus, I think having it go berserk wouldn't be all that much of an issue.
For us I'd call it part of the plan.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Arkrite » Mon May 15, 2017 12:51 am

Davies wrote:
Fri May 12, 2017 12:26 am
Other way around. I noted that Zalman's pragmatism had been shaping her away from her earlier idealism when they talked right before you went on the mission to the dying world ... regardless, Captain Thunder would have had the last word, and he'd have insisted on making the rescue attempt.
And here I expected Zane to be a bad influence on people ;~)

Of course I suspect it wouldn't get to that point, but a part of me can't help but wonder if far enough down the lines they'd be on the opposite side of their original arguments with Zalman being the idealist and Seven being dangerously pragmatic.

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Re: Project Freedom DVD Commentary (?)

Post by Arkrite » Mon May 15, 2017 12:57 am

Shock wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm
Ah, that's right. I have trouble remembering which of your characters was invited to whose secret hideout ;}


You were probably thinking of Richard, who really played Charile's role in that game. He made friends with damn near everybody, including a lot of the people we fought against.

You know there's a scene I'd love to see for Spiderman/Charlie/Richard... put them into a situation where they're completely out numbered and SOL then hand them a phone... and watch the people start showing up to help.

Shock wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 8:26 pm
It would probably be nerve-wracking to bring one of the Centurion robots out to fight but once you mangae to get it into the Terminus, I think having it go berserk wouldn't be all that much of an issue.
Yes, because giving the GM that kind of ammunition would never come back to haunt us ;~)

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