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Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:05 am
by Ken
There's that "dudebro" word again. You youngins make me glad the Urban Dictionary exists.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Shrinking Violet! Lightning Lad! Matter-Eater Lad!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:13 am
by Woodclaw
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:33 pm
Ken wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:56 pm
Oddly, fellow Bismollian Calorie Queen was actually more powerful than Tenzil.
Not that odd, she’d used some sort of super-science to give her super-powers. Like approximately 24,601 other superheroes.

By Bismollian standards, Tenzil doesn’t have any superpowers. He’s just a regular Bismollian, with an extra helping of charisma, courage, and quick wits. In TV Trope terms, Tenzil is a “Badass Normal” to his homeworld. Taryn is a “Powerhouse” archetype hero, albeit one with a time limit on her powers... She’s basically the Bismollian equivalent of Hour-Man!

Most alien Legionnaires have the same superpower as everyone else on their home planet, but are explicitly said to be more powerful and/or more skilled than anyone else. Everyone from Braal is magnetokinetic, but Rokk is considered to be the best at using it; every Naltoran is a precognitive, Nura is the most powerful... Tenzil isn’t any better or worse than other Bismollians are at eating stuff. He’s a superhero (to them) for his skills and wits, despite his lack (to them) of superpowers.

Matter-Eater Lad is the Bismollian MacGyver.
The funny thing is how this somehow contradicts the original idea of the Legion as a "superpowered kid only club", yet it makes a lot of sense.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:15 am
by Jabroniville
The Great Darkness Saga is such a fantastic read. It's one of the only times I've felt that Darkseid maintained the grandeur he was created to have- he really seemed like he could have destroyed the universe.

Great moments:
* The new Invisible Kid, barely minted as a Legionnaire, sneaks into the portal the "minions" are using. And faces Darkseid. Who can see him. And Darkseid goes through this big thing about how courageous this was, darkly adding "It is common for Gods to grant a boon to mortals of great courage" and "gifts" Jacques with a look at the visage of their enemy. The result is a near-comatose, shaking Jacques with a white streak burned into his hair, muttering "Darkness... so cold..."

* Wildfire being an overprotective ass to Dawnstar, literally THROWING her out of danger at one point ("Drake Burroughs, you moron!"), before one of the minions- a GUARDIAN OF THE UNIVERSE, taunts him that he'll keep Dawnstar as "a pet". Wildfire just FREAKS, belts out a single "NO!" as loud as he can, and unleashes his full power, VAPORIZING one of the most powerful beings in the universe in one shot.

* The encroaching terror that sees beings as powerful as The Time Trapper and Mordru beaten and humbled with ease.

* Darkseid's plan involving 4 billion Superman-class beings as his personal army. And that act of overreach ends up being his end as well.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:00 pm
by Ares
Batgirl III wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:47 am
I dunno, I remember that exact scene pretty well, and it seems like exactly h=the sort of behavior one sees from a certain sort of "Dudebro" teenagers and twenty-somethings. Maybe making Lightning Lad into the dudebro Live-Wire wasn't a good decision* such a scene was perfectly in character with the new personality.

* Personally, I liked it. It was nice having a team of good people who weren't necessarily squeaky clean Father Knows Best types, but also weren't total grimdark A-holes. This incarnation of these kids still acted like the teenagers and twenty-somethings they were meant to be, Live-Wire was a bit of a douche, but he was the kind of douche that still has friends because he's fun to hangout with, is never intentionally cruel, and does do "the right thing" when push comes to shove.
Like I said, I don't have a problem with the concept of having someone who is less than perfect on the Legion, especially in that setting. And having someone to create some tension on the team is good. I just object to it being Lightning Lad, as that went against a lot of his earlier characterization. If they were going to have that kind of person, they could have easily included a SW6 version of Timber Wolf and him being a hot-tempered, abrasive jerk wouldn't have been out of character. For that matter, they included several new Legionnaires like Computo, Dragonmage and Catspaw. If they were going to shake up the Legion personality wise, again, why not create a new character to act as the abrasive jerk? At least then you aren't having someone act wildly out of character and you can explore your new character's persona, reveal layers to them, etc.

Regarding Live Wire, his bio mentioned him being charismatic, being able to talk his way out of trouble, and being a good person despite being abrasive, much like you said, but it almost never was demonstrated in the book itself. And yet, he displayed no charisma within the book itself, his only real friend was Inferno (who actually DID manage to pull of the 'charismatic jerk but still a good guy deep down' thing much better), even Saturn Girl wasn't sure why she put up with Garth and most of their on-page interaction was them fighting, Andromeda and Invisible Kid were calling him out on his douchebag nature as early as issue 3, and he WAS often cruel to people. He could have potentially killed civilians in a crowd if Cosmic Boy hadn't leapt in front of him and taken the shot himself, almost dying in the process. He almost DID kill a kid in that outburst, and he refused to take responsibility for or accept disciplinary action for what he did. It took 15 issues before he did anything even remotely decent for a fellow Legionnaire (reconcile with that kid he injured, try and help Ferro get over the trauma of the nightmare zone they were in, etc.). Garth was the one Legionnaire I couldn't sympathize with at all. Even Inferno was less of a douche than Live Wire, and the pair of them are basically responsible for creating the new Emerald Empress.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:07 pm
by Ares
Jabroniville wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:15 am
The Great Darkness Saga is such a fantastic read. It's one of the only times I've felt that Darkseid maintained the grandeur he was created to have- he really seemed like he could have destroyed the universe.

Great moments:
* The new Invisible Kid, barely minted as a Legionnaire, sneaks into the portal the "minions" are using. And faces Darkseid. Who can see him. And Darkseid goes through this big thing about how courageous this was, darkly adding "It is common for Gods to grant a boon to mortals of great courage" and "gifts" Jacques with a look at the visage of their enemy. The result is a near-comatose, shaking Jacques with a white streak burned into his hair, muttering "Darkness... so cold..."

* Wildfire being an overprotective ass to Dawnstar, literally THROWING her out of danger at one point ("Drake Burroughs, you moron!"), before one of the minions- a GUARDIAN OF THE UNIVERSE, taunts him that he'll keep Dawnstar as "a pet". Wildfire just FREAKS, belts out a single "NO!" as loud as he can, and unleashes his full power, VAPORIZING one of the most powerful beings in the universe in one shot.

* The encroaching terror that sees beings as powerful as The Time Trapper and Mordru beaten and humbled with ease.

* Darkseid's plan involving 4 billion Superman-class beings as his personal army. And that act of overreach ends up being his end as well.
I'll also give Levitz credit for allowing Mon-El to be take out in the Great Darkness Saga and let other heroes save the day, rather than letting his pet character do most of the grunt work. Hell, from what I remember, Mon-El didn't really do all that much during the story.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:12 pm
by Goldar
When I heard Triplicate Girl could make unlimited number of selves, I thought she was either a mutant who did not know she could do this or a power boost from using her powers so extensively, especially after the deaths of her other selves.

Was there ever an explanation why she could now make many selves?

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:25 pm
by Ares
Goldar wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:12 pm
When I heard Triplicate Girl could make unlimited number of selves, I thought she was either a mutant who did not know she could do this or a power boost from using her powers so extensively, especially after the deaths of her other selves.

Was there ever an explanation why she could now make many selves?
I'm not aware of any explanation. I'd continue with the idea of the Legionnaires each being the "Batman" or "Martian Manhunter" of their respective peoples, with Carggites all being able to make duplicates of themselves, but the "average" one can only split themselves into 2 or 3 people, with "athletes" being able to make 4 or more, and I'd finally make Duplicate Girl (which works as a name) able to make a dozen or more.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:29 pm
by Goldar
Thanks, Ares.

That is the way I look at the Legionnaires too.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:42 pm
by Ares
Something else I noticed while reading the early Legionnaires book was that that version of the Legion held all of their tryouts in a public square in front of the news and the crowds of Legion hopefuls. And it really hammered home why that was a BAD idea, and why it was better when they started accepting applicants one at a time behind closed doors. The poor girl that would get possessed by the Emerald Eye wouldn't have been so publicly humiliated if Live Wire hadn't called her a "fat cow" in front of cameras streaming the video to the rest of the planet, or when Inferno brushed her off as being ugly.

The creative team also apparently got Ferro Lad and Stone Boy's powers confused, because we NEVER see Ferro transform into metal and then move around on his own. He's always falling or being thrown, and at one point tells someone else to push him off a building as he turns to metal, implying he couldn't have leapt after becoming metal himself. Weird.

It was also kind of interesting that the Chameleon on the Legionnaires wasn't the SW6 Chameleon, but was actually Chameleon Boy from the classic Legion acting as an adult advisor to the rest of the kids. Cham's SW6 counterpart was killed in an explosion, along with the SW6 Princess Projectra and Karate Kid. And in a case of making it clear that the writers had no idea what to do with these kids, later on it was revealed that the younger Legion was temporal versions of the original Legion, so that when Glorith killed Leviathan, Colossal Boy faded from existence. If that was the case, then both the adult Cham and Projectra should have died as well.

Ah comics.

And I know it depends on the artist, but Infectious Lass definitely looks worth trying to get close to, diseases be damned:

Image

Bouncing Boy

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:38 pm
by Jabroniville
ImageImageImageImageImage

BOUNCING BOY (Chuck Taine)
Created By:
Jerry Siegel & Jim Mooney
First Appearance: Action Comics #276 (May 1961)
Home Planet: Earth
Origin of Powers: Falsely-Labeled Soda Pop
Eras: Original, Reboot (as powerless mechanic)
Relationships: Duo Damsel
Role: Deliberately-Weak Superhero, Loser Who Gets The Girl
PL 8 (151)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Acrobatics 4 (+7)
Deception 4 (+4)
Expertise (Space Hero) 4 (+6)
Insight 4 (+6)
Perception 3 (+5)
Technology 4 (+6)
Technology 4 (+10) -- (Flaws: Limited to Vehicular Repairs)
Vehicles 3 (+7)

Advantages:
Daze (Deception), Equipment 10 (Legion Gear), Evasion 2, Improved Critical (Bouncing Attack), Interpose, Move-By Action, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4, Set-Up, Teamwork 2

Powers:
"Bouncing Powers"
"Rubbery Body" Protection 5 (Extras: Impervious 7) [12]
"Bouncing" Leaping 3 (60 feet) [3]
"Like a Ball" Immunity 10 (Falling & Electrical Damage) [10]
"Fists Bounce Off" Immunity 20 (Bludgeoning Damage) (Flaws: Limited to Half-Effect) [10]

"Bounce-Back Attack" Damage 6 (Extras: Reaction +3) (Flaws: Limited to Damage of Opponent's Attack) (18) -- [20]
  • AE: "Pinball Attack" Damage 7 (Feats: Ricochet 5, Split 3) (16)
  • AE: "Area Bounce" Damage 6 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Shapeable) (12)
Equipment:
"Legion Gear"
"Telepathic Ear Plug" Comprehend 3 (Languages) (6)

"Legion Flight Ring"
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Immunity 7 (Hot, Cold, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)
Movement 1 (Space Travel 1) (2)
Communication 5 (Flaws: Fifth Rank is only towards Legionnaires) (18)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Pinball Attack +8 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Bounce-Back Attack +8 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Area Bounce +6 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8, Fortitude +5, Will +7

Complications:
Reputation (Dumb Power)- Chuck's power is quite silly, and he knows it. He occasionally gets struck with low self-esteem.
Relationship (Duo Damsel)- Chuck is the only guy on the Legion who gets TWO wives at once. The writers don't even bother to hide how kinky that is, but Luornu tends to repeatedly retire and avoid battle.

Total: Abilities: 46 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 24 / Powers: 55 / Defenses: 12 (151)

Silver Age Bouncing Boy:
-On any other team, Bouncing Boy would be the Mortiest, loser-y member. But on the Legion, he's merely #2 or 3 on the list. A classic case of a goofy creation from day one, writers have always had a difficult time making him useful, and thus he tended to lose and regain his powers at a rate of once per year just to get him out of the way. Still, the writers liked his PERSONALITY enough to give him a regular gal-pal in Duo Damsel, and help him save the day a couple times, so he always had a place (often as a Legion Academy trainer). Oddly, he's become much MORE popular in recent years, all thanks to various cartoon appearances, where his goofy name & personality belied a pretty effective ricocheting battle-tactic that made him nigh-impossible to hit, and he can also dual as a Fan Insert character, and kind of a more humble "Regular Guy" character on a team of super-powered beautiful people. He's actually the best possible use of "Lame Power Guy", actually having the courage and capability to make himself useful in SOME way, while acknowledging that he's not that great.

-Chuck Taine is an Earthling who drank a super-plastic formula, which he thought was soda pop. This being 1961's era of comics, he gained super-human powers. Twice rejected for Legion membership, he was finally allowed to join when he defeated an electrical villain (because he wasn't grounded, having been bouncing in the air). He proclaimed himself the "Morale Officer" of the team, owing to his cheery personality. However, he was de-powered and left the team after a short while, returning only for the Computo tale in which one of Triplicate Girl's selves was killed. He lost his powers TWO MORE TIMES before proposing to the now-Duo Damsel, and the pair retired, being the least-combat-capable Leionnaires at the time. Though they were a bit silly, the writers/artists made it pretty clear that yes, Chuck was banging both of her, AT THE SAME TIME. So, you know, score Chuck.

-Chuck and his wife later founded the Legion Academy, training new generations of kids, and even formed the Legion of Substitute Heroes from assorted rejects. He'd even meet his young clone from the "SW6" kids. But for the most part, his fighting days were done by the mid-1970s.

Later Chuck Taines:
-Chuck, like Matter-Eater Lad, joined the Legion in the "Reboot" era, but in a "Support" role, as the team's architect. He never appeared in the "Threeboot" version, but Infinite Crisis restored the oldest continuity, and Bouncing Boy returned, along with his wife, who could now split herself into limitless copies. Once more, he is the team's trainer.

Bouncing Boy's Stats:
-Bouncing Boy is a low-end Legionnaire in terms of power, but still costs quite a bit thanks to eventually developing nearly every single capability in the "Bouncing" power in 2e's Ultimate Power. He's immune to falling damage, he can snap back from being hit, he can hit guys in an enclosed space for +6 Damage, and he's got a good Toughness save as well. Only problem is, he's still low-level, so the Fatal Five or something is still gonna beat the crap out of him on a one-to-one basis. He's best-off using his powers as a team player (hence Teamwork & Set-Up) to annoy the villains, allowing Superboy or Sun Boy to blast them or the like.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:10 pm
by Spam
Fat guy that marries Menage a Trois Lass... don't you think his Presence should be higher?

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:14 pm
by Batgirl III
Chuck Taine, much like Scott Summers, explicitly has a prodigy-level ability to calculate complex ricochets, angles of impact, reflections and deflections. It helps him use his power to the utmost in battle and makes him a terror to play billiards against.

One could almost make the case for Chuck having a single rank of the Throwing Mastery Advantage. He’s taken out heavy armored enemy mooks by throwing billiard balls at them, hard enough to bludgeon them into unconsciousness. Sure, they were obviously Minions, but it’s impressive.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:20 pm
by Yojimbo
Wasn't Bouncing Boy based off of one of Shooter's best friends, too?

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:23 pm
by Woodclaw
Batgirl III wrote:
Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:14 pm
Chuck Taine, much like Scott Summers, explicitly has a prodigy-level ability to calculate complex ricochets, angles of impact, reflections and deflections. It helps him use his power to the utmost in battle and makes him a terror to play billiards against.

One could almost make the case for Chuck having a single rank of the Throwing Mastery Advantage. He’s taken out heavy armored enemy mooks by throwing billiard balls at them, hard enough to bludgeon them into unconsciousness. Sure, they were obviously Minions, but it’s impressive.
Billiard showdown: Scott Summers vs Chuck Taine vs Clint Barton.


Personally I really liked the animated incarnation of Chuck mostly because at some point the writers realized that his powers were not his biggest contribution to the team, he was way more effective as the resident pilot, backup engineer and, later, field commander.

Re: Jab's Builds! (Lightning & Matter-Eater Lad! Laurel Kent! Saturn Girl! Duo Damsel!)

Posted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:47 pm
by Batgirl III
Objection! That’s two Marvels and one DC! Chuck should get an assist from Oliver Queen.

For a tie breaker, they can all play darts.

For a tied tie breaker breaker, they can play beer pong and brag about who has the sexist girlfriend.