Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Tattooedman
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Tattooedman » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:09 am

Nightwing & Starfire's relationship - To me it was more of a "first love" kind of deal, maybe more on Dick's part given Kori's personality and such, but the "passion" and such and public pda going on between reminds me of my friends who were with the one they "think about every now & then years later". It kind of irritates me that the writers have turned them into something more than Wolfman had originally intended (because I agree with Ken that he was just writing a bit of super hero soap opera).


Bumblebee & Vixen - I think both are used as diversity hires for whatever show they're put on. To me the big difference is the type of character/stories being told that determines which one is used.

"What? We need a friend of color for the main characters on our teen-themed show? GET ME BUMBLEBEE!"

"What do you mean Legends of Tomorrow needs to add a new member to deal with adult themed issues? GET ME VIXEN!"

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:56 am

haha, holy crap: http://www.titanstower.com/

TITANS TOWER is still around!! It looks like the last update was in 2016, and some of the character bios area bit dated, but wow. This site brings me WAY BACK- this is from the old-school days where there was maybe 1-2 repositories of info for any given comic book series. And when I first got into the Teen Titans and their history, this site was INSTRUMENTAL in teaching me the basics. I remember scouring every bit of it for bios, especially of the characters who were dead and thus never appeared in the modern books.

I'm also reminded of another old repository- one that now exists in image-less "Internet Wayback Machine Hell"- Unca Cheeks's website. Cheeks was a HUGE fan of the Silver Age, focusing on that era quite well, though he'd do the occasional reviews of Bronze age stuff. The site being dated to like 1998 or something (an interview says 2001, so I was close), it was very barebones by today's standards, but was one of the only places to find scans back then. And while he was VERY against most"modern comics" (he was a very loud anti-Kyle Rayner voice, back when Hal Jordan had recently been killed), he was pretty well-reasoned in his arguments.

I remember his descriptions of the Titans stuff of the Bronze Age- he straight-up called them some of the worst books out there, with the most painful "Adults Writing Teens" dialogue on Earth. Like, worse than when Stan Lee had Peter & Harry calling each other "pussycat" in Spider-Man. Just HORRENDOUS "what's the plan, dad?" type of stuff.

He's also the source of a quote I can no longer find- a guy who wrote the JLA (possibly their creator, in fact) bemoaning the fact that he put Aquaman on the team, "Because then I always had to have a reason why they were near water".

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KorokoMystia
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by KorokoMystia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 pm

So I just discovered a ridiculous Marvel jobber I'd never heard of before, and well..I just had to bring him to this thread's attention.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:50 pm

LOL- check "The List". The Painter's already on it. In fact, I put him on the short list for one of those "Days of Random Builds" bits :).

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Lilith Clay

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:58 pm

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"The Titans forgotten? Most of them well left that way! (Laughter.) With the possible exception of Lilith, ’cause I enjoy doing her but, now that she’s gone, it’s just as well, because of Raven’s role in there. All the others, frankly, I don’t care."
-George Perez


LILITH CLAY (Lilith Clay Jupiter, aka Omen)
Created By:
Robert Kanigher
First Appearance: The Teen Titans #25 (Jan. 1970)
Role: Recurring Side Character, Enigmatic Girl
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Olympus
PL 8 (137)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Deception 4 (+5)
Expertise (Go-Go Dancing) 4 (+5)
Persuasion 5 (+6)
Perception 5 (+8)
Insight 7 (+10)
Stealth 3 (+6)

Advantages:
Ranged Attack 2, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
Teleport 20 (Extras: Extended) (60) -- [62]
  • AE: "Telepathy" Communication (Mental) 2 (Extras: Area, Selective) Linked to Mind-Reading 8 (28)
  • AE: "Telelocation" Senses 4 (Detect Mental Activity- Ranged 2, Acute) (4)
Senses 4 (Precognition) [4]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Mind-Reading -- (+8 Mind Reading, DC 18)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2, Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Discovering Her Past)- Lilith is an enigmatic cypher, and has spent years trying to find her origins. Pre-Crisis, she was the daughter of Thia, Titaness of the Sun, and joined Olympus when she turned on her evil mother.
Relationship (Gnarrk)- Lilith hooked up with the goofy Unfrozen Caveman during the Silver Age.
Relationship (Azrael)- The goofy winged man crushed on Lilith pretty hard, but they were rarely together, as she went to Olympus to hang out with her family.

Total: Abilities: 40 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 66 / Defenses: 13 (137)

Lilith Clay- Odd Titan Out:
-Lilith Clay's a weird one. Basically a chick with psychic powers & Precognition (who wasn't really much of a battlefield member), she was a reasonably big feature in the 1970s Titans comics, back when nobody cared about the book, and so was able to show up a few times in the more popular '80s version of the book. However, she was made redundant by the appearance of the MUCH more visually-cool and more popular Raven, and so was reduced to the dustbin of comics, being killed in a hilariously casual way (in the same book that killed a much more important teammate).

-Lilith Clay had inborn psionic powers, and used them to read her parents' minds, realizing that she was adopted. She thus went on a search for her birth parents, and ended up working at a disco (because it was the 1970s, you see), where she met the Teen Titans (and Loren Jupiter, their wealthy benefactor). Joining them, she was sort of a "second girl", lasting with the team through the rest of their run (18 issues). Drawn in a very beautiful manner by Nick Cardy (whose skills at making gorgeous women were REALLY impressive- a lost art even by the 1980s, where inking took on a more "tracing"-based approach, and thus lost a lot of the impact it used to have), she was saddled with a lot of loser acts. She eventually left the team to help found Titans West on the other coast. She first dated Don "Dove" Hall, but then left him for... Gnarrk, the infamous "Caveman Titan". Seeing a gentle soul behind his gruff exterior, she kind of babied him, making their romantic relationship a bit weird.

Lilith in the Wolfman/Perez Era:
-Lilith disappeared from comics when the Titans' book was cancelled, appearing only briefly in the Wolfman/Perez era at first, at Donna Troy's wedding. It was revealed that Gnarrk had died off-panel, which set her up for semi-frequent appearances in the '80s book. First off, the winged, angelic Azrael and she would fall head over heels in love instantly, in a pretty silly story arc that earned a lot of hate. Nobody could really buy their whole "OMG WE'RE SOOOOOOOOOOOO IN LOVE!" bit, and Azrael in particular was really silly. She was possessed by Azar, psion of Azarath, in The Terror of Trigon, thus being instrumental in saving the day.

-Lilith would rejoin the team for their next arc, suddenly gaining flame-like powers. It would eventually be revealed that her true mother was Thia- a Titan of Myth. Having escaped Tartarus years ago, she seduced and murdered a series of wealthy men in order to gain money and power- Lilith's father was burned alive the night she was conceived. Thia's estranged husband Hyperion sacrificed himself to slay her, thus leaving Lilith alone once more. Lilith accepted Zeus's offer to stay on Olympus as a Demigod, and was basically written out of the book.

Omen:
-Lilith's brand-new, hard-fought Origin Story... would basically be undone by the Crisis, as the Titans of Myth were now retconned into being freed and training Donna Troy and her fellow students. Lilith was basically dumped from their story as a result, and wouldn't pop up in any kind of a big role until 1996, when Dan Jurgens wrote the new Teen Titans book. Here, Omen is a mysterious, masked figure working for Mr. Jupiter, again financing the Titans. She was SUPPOSED to be revealed as Raven, but then Jurgens got hit by the Ban-Hammer, as DC Editorial had refused him the use of ANY of the "New Teen Titans" era characters (a huge part of why that book failed)- he was forced to scramble, thus picking "Raven Lite" instead. She was thus revealed as the illegitimate daughter of Mr. Jupiter at last. During this run, Lilith showcased telekinetic and illusion-casting powers, as well as dissociative episodes because of all the voices in her head (she also had the "raspy-edged" word balloons, indicating haunting mystic power). This incarnation of the Titans did not last long- the unsuccessful book was cancelled.

2000s Lilith:
-Lilith went into disuse around that time, showing up only rarely. She was forced into helping Vandal Savage form a rival team to take down the new Titans, but tricked him by forming a squad that would never work well together. Years later, she would randomly pop up with the Titans during the Graduation Day story... which would prove disastrous for her, as she was immediately neck-snapped by a Superman Android. This was hilarious not only because of how casual it was (she was brought back just to be killed), but Donna Troy, a Titan of far greater magnitude, was killed IMMEDIATELY AFTERWARDS, thus taking every bit of "Oh NO!" away from Lilith's demise! And so Donna got the full-issue funeral, the open mourning of Wonder Woman, Nightwing and others, and more... while Lilith Clay was completely forgotten.

-Lilith remained dead for the most part, though has had some one-off Resurrections- Brother Blood attempted to make her his new mother-figure (Kid Eternity undid this one), and she was one of the Black Lantern Corps in Blackest Night, disintegrated with other dead Titans by Dawn Granger's "White Light". DC's "New 52" saw a new Omen created, also named Lilith, but being a telepath with her eyes sewn shut, aiding a group called N.O.W.H.E.R.E.- the "Rebirth" era separates her from the old Lilith... who reappears in Titans Hunt #1 as a drug counselor. Calling herself Omen once more, her and the Titans regain their memories, forming a new group of the adult members (simply called "The Titans").

Lilith as a Whole:
-Lilith Clay is a minor character who really kind of lucked out- a lame-duck act tied to a loser character in Gnarrk, she was returned to prominence by the providence of being a former Teen Titan when that was DC's most popular book. She thus got numerous shots at the limelight, though notably all of these crapped out because she's just never had that much interesting stuff tied to her. Ending up as "Raven Lite" kind of defined her existence. Dying in the most hilariously second-string way possible (dying immediately before a much more important character) seemed to be the final capstone on her career... and then they quasi-resurrected her repeatedly, and now she's alive in the current continuity again, because reasons.

Lilith's Stats:
-Lilith was no fighter. She basically did stuff like "look out!" and "I detect people here!" (sorta like being Deanna Troy and going "I sense anger!" when the clearly-angry alien is shooting at the Enterprise), and watched out for the rest of the team. Not a bad team player, but I wouldn't want to play her. Also, her powers are annoyingly-vague, and sometimes changed- she could teleport in "JLA/Titans" but in the old days, she definitely couldn't. Hell, she didn't even have Psychic Powers back then- she just predicted stuff and whined! Whining isn't a super-power! Well it was in the '80s & '90s, but NOT NOW!

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KorokoMystia
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by KorokoMystia » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:59 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:50 pm
LOL- check "The List". The Painter's already on it. In fact, I put him on the short list for one of those "Days of Random Builds" bits :).
Heh, that's great. Weridly, though, I didn't see him when I checked the to-do list.

To make up for it, I did come across a weird Golden Age jobber who fought Marvel Boy (though he does have an alternate universe version, and there's even a second guy to use the name): The Great Video.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:08 am

Looks like I forgot to write the Painter into my master list, which hasn’t been updated in a long time. It’s wayyyyyy out of date now.

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Gnarrk

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:09 am

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GNARRK (John Gnarrk)
Created By:
Bob Haney & George Tuska
First Appearance: The Teen Titans #32 (April 1971)
Role: Unfrozen Caveman Superhero
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans (Ally), Titans West
PL 7 (74)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 1
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Athletics 6 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+10)
Expertise (Survival) 5 (+7)
Insight 2 (+4)
Intimidation 5 (+4)
Perception 4 (+6)
Stealth 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Diehard, Extraordinary Effort, Great Endurance, Equipment, Fast Grab, Ranged Attack 4, Set-Up, Teamwork

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +3

Complications:
Relationship (Lilith Clay)- Lilith hooked up with the goofy Unfrozen Caveman during the Silver Age. The two are quite close.
Prejudice (Caveman)- Gnarrk is often underestimated and mistreated because of his Cro-Magnon origins, despite looking like a fairly-rugged young man.

Total: Abilities: 44 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 11 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 8 (74)

-Gnarrk is probably the most-forgotten Titans character, since he was basically wiped out by the Crisis on Infinite Earths (he was re-introduced as a "hey, remember THAT old case?" situation where he never joined the team). He's an unfrozen Neanderthal (or Cro-Magnon man- the writers alternated them like they were synonyms) who thawed out in modern times, and was treated as a scientific curiosity until Lilith, using Telepathy, came to realize he was a noble, gentle soul, and soon fell in love with him. He also had some kind of Crystal stuck in his chest that enhanced his understanding in a way that wasn't made clear. He & Lilith soon separated from this Hanna-Barbera-like Titans team, reappeared as Titans West (a recurring gimmick- that of a Bi-Coastal B-League Titans roster).

-Probably seeing that he was HILARIOUSLY goofy and didn't fit in with modern times at all, Wolfman & Perez casually namedropped him during the Donna Troy Wedding Issue, telling Lilith how sorry they were than Gnarrk died. They killed him off OFF-PANEL because he was so silly. It turns out that the crystal in his chest was slowly losing energy, which eventually killed him.

-The New 52 would declare him a member of the original Teen Titans, but nothing about his past was shown- Roy Harper meets him in modern times, and Lilith says that she had to erase everyone's memories for some reason. Since it's the 2010s and we're all Post-Modern and stuff, characters like Gnarrk, who were once dismissed as too stupid and silly for comics, are now making a comeback in the "HO HO WE ARE SO SILLY, RIGHT??" era, for better or worse. I mean, this characters was just TRASHED when I first discovered the Titans fandom in the early 2000s- fans acted like he was the stupidest thing to ever happen to the team, and everyone was super-happy he was dead. And now all of a sudden it's CAVEMAN SUPERHERO.

-Gnarrk is smarter than your average caveman thanks to his Chest Crystal (though it's unclear what else he learns or figures out- while in icy stasis he somehow cured disease and aided humanity), and a physical powerhouse thanks to his squatter, thick-boned physique, but isn't that impressive altogether.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Thorpocalypse » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:42 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 am
Man, if you’d have told me that MAL DUNCAN AND KAREN BEECHER could sustain an entire day’s worth of comments, I’d have thought you were nuts. This is a surprise, lol.
Just wait until you post Pantha! :D
Me fail English? That's unpossible. - Ralph Wiggum

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Azrael (The ‘80s Hair One)

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:23 am

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CHRIST, this guy.

AZRAEL I (Real Name Unknown)
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & Jose-Louis Garcia Lopez
First Appearance: Tales of the Teen Titans #51 (March 1985)
Role: Forgotten Character, One-Note Guy
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans (Ally)
PL 8 (87)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+8)
Expertise (Science) 2 (+2)
Technology 4 (+4)

Advantages:
Defensive Roll, Evasion, Favoured Environment (Airborne), Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Initiative, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Winged Alien Physiology"
Flight 6 (120 mph) (Flaws: Winged) [6]
"Wing Slash" Strength-Damage +2 [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Wing Slash +9 (+6 Damage, DC 21)
Initiative +9

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +4 (+5 D.Roll), Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Unknown Origins)- Azrael's past is unknown- he showed up after crash-landing his spaceship on Earth an indeterminate number of years ago. He does not even know his own name- only taking that of an Angel because he's a winged dude and the Church of Blood wanted to use him.
Relationship (Lilith Clay)- Azrael basically fell head-over-heels in obsessive, childlike love for Lilith Clay (How? Donna Troy & Starfire were RIGHT THERE). Pretty much every single thing he says revolves around the redheaded Titan.

Total: Abilities: 54 / Skills: 10--5 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 8 / Defenses: 14 (87)

-Oh MAN was Azrael a chore to read through. I've been searching through my comics, but I can't find it- I'm pretty sure they got a TON of letters from fans complaining about how freakin' annoying this one-note dork was. He came across like a poor attempt at Lady-Focused Fanservice, in that he was a shirtless, curly-haired, pretty-boy Angel who flew down and fell instantly in love with "Normal Girl" Lilith Clay. But the sole breadth of his personality was spent fawning over Lilith NON-STOP- it was the most putrid, awful lovey-dovey dialogue in comics. The only possible comparison I could give would be Natalie Portman's dialogue in the Star Wars prequels. So the fans pretty much barfed all over this guy, and his permanent link to non-Titan Lilith made him not matter all that much, so he was quickly shuffled under the rug and forgotten about.

-His last general appearance was when Lilith had to confront her evil mother Thia, and he disappeared between then (about 1985) and the late '90s JLA/Titans series, where he didn't even get any dialogue! The fact that DC has ANOTHER prominent character by the same name (Jean-Paul Valley, the former second Batman) pretty much makes him persona-non-grata anyhow. It's little things like this story arc that arguably knock The Teen Titans out of the neck-and-neck race between them and the X-Men of the same era- Claremont could stumble a little bit, but never like THAT.

-Azrael is kind of a loser who couldn't hold a candle to the other Titans- I mean, he's just a FLYING GUY, and doesn't even get any other special angelic powers or anything. He's only barely PL 8, and only makes it fully by Dodging and with a "Wing Slash" (I FIGURE someone with wings could do that, but I don't think he ever did).
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay!)

Post by Ares » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:59 am

Just to show how lame Azrael was, the Teen Titans cartoon included Gnarrk in several episodes. Azrael never appeared on the show. Let that sink in, the silly caveman that was killed off panel for being too goofy for the comics appeared multiple times in the show. Azrael NEVER appeared. The show considered Gnarrk less stupid than the winged wonder here.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:25 am

Of course, the show was mostly a comedy. Gnarrk, a dumb caveman, made sense for that. The guy whose entire concept revolved around being in love with Lilith really had no purpose. They could’ve maybe done an episode around him being a crazy stalker or something, though.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:20 am

Thorpocalypse wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:42 am
Jabroniville wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 am
Man, if you’d have told me that MAL DUNCAN AND KAREN BEECHER could sustain an entire day’s worth of comments, I’d have thought you were nuts. This is a surprise, lol.
Just wait until you post Pantha! :D
heh- I was gonna post Donna Troy & Terry Long today, but realizing that Bumblebee & Herald were iconic to the Titans of the '70s, and seeing how many comments they drew, I decided to make TODAY the "Day of Lilith Clay". Of course, it didn't really replicate the other '70s Titans in comments, but it was a game try :).

Personally, I find the whole "Gnarrk" thing quite fascinating. Pretty much the whole '80s and '90s, this character was an awful joke- comics were much too serious for stuff like the "Caveman Sidekick" thing. The first fansites I found absolutely trashed the guy (I think "Titans Tower" went on about what a joke he was). And then all of a sudden it's 2016 or something and suddenly comics are post-modern enough to be all "HEY LOOK HERE'S A CAVEMAN AND IT'S A SERIOUS BOOK!", like... is it okay to accept this now? How dumb is TOO dumb?

And I dunno if it's my age, or what, but I'm not sure how good or how bad that is that we're seeing Gnarrk-like stuff show up in comics again. Marvel, of course, is going WAY tongue-in-cheek, with numerous comedy books and otherwise "serious" tales with goofy fat characters or whatever in them. But... this was always a big thing holding Captain Marvel back at DC- the perception that the "Talking Tiger" was too silly. But now it seems we're ACCEPTING things as silly, but possibly going too far over the line (like... it's now "Hipster Silly", where they acknowledge the silliness instead of doing dumb things to appeal to kids).

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:21 am

My original comments about Lilith, way back in 2013:
Man, I tell you, there's SOMETHING about the art of the 1970s that made the girls look SO good. It's something we totally lost in the 1980s for some reason (maybe the lack of Romance Comics meant artists had little training in specifically making girls look good?), and the '90s just focused on the bosoms.
Ken's rather well-referenced response:
Ken wrote: The artist of these, and of most of the run on the original run on Teen Titans (from the '60s into the early '70s), Nick Cardy, died yesterday (3 November 2013). He also did a whole, huge amount of DC covers in the early 1970s. The man was a genius, and his women were always gorgeous. Rest in peace, Mr. Cardy.


Beyond that, as far as what the comic book industry lost in the 1980s were inkers who actually understood that the job of the inker was to make the art look good. They aren't supposed to just be "tracers". As the industry started getting more and more tracers and fewer and fewer inkers who knew how to paint a pretty picture with a brush over someone else's, the art lost something. It's gotten to the point now where pencillers are supposed do everything to make the art look good before the tracer comes in that the pencillers can't keep monthly schedules, and the inkers can barely keep up.

But the great masters of the brush are a dying breed.

Hell, if I could see a Jim Lee drawing inked by Sid Greene, I might actually start to like Jim Lee's art.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay!)

Post by Ken » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:38 am

Azrael (the Winged Man) was created by Marv Wolfman and José Luis García-López. Jab, check your template, buddy.

Pre-Crisis Gnarrk didn't have the crystal in his chest.

Post-Crisis they broadly hinted that Gnarrk had been a contemporary of Vandal Savage and the Immortal Man, and that Gnarrk's crystal and Immortal Man's may be related.

The Winged Man was technically the 2nd Azrael in Teen Titans lore, as (supposedly) it was the actual Angel of Death, Azrael, who gave the Ram's Horn to Mal.

Marv Wolfman was a hack. When he had George Perez co-plotting the Titans with him, the Titans were awesome (and apparently George was co-plotting with Marv well before he was ever credited with it). When George wasn't there, we got Wildebeests, Danny Chase, and Azrael.

And on the subject of Bumblebee and Hornblower getting a full day's worth of comments goes... all I can say is shofar sho good.
Roy Harper puts the 'arse' in Arsenal.

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