Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

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Ken
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Re: Herald

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:49 am

Shock wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm
Image
I love the backhanded "We're not responsible for this abomination" editor's note
The thing is, he only wore the costume for part of just one issue (#49). It only appears in... I think 8 panels. Maybe 12.
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Re: Herald

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:03 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm
Now, he is called "Hornblower"... which is the shittiest name in super-hero history. He soon returns to the Guardian name.

Post-Crisis Mal Duncan:
-Hilariously, even MAL DUNCAN is changed by the Crisis. He now never took on the identity of the Guardian, and Gabriel's Horn is now a space-warping device that he took from a villain called The Gargoyle. He is now just called "Herald".
It's kind of a cultural thing. Between 1937 and 1967, C. S. Forester had a series of novels and short stories about a early 19th century British Naval officer named Horatio Hornblower. So it is entirely possible that Bob Rozakis (writer, born 1951) and Julie Schwartz (editor, born 1915) had read those novels, and therefore thought "Hornblower" sounded like a heroic name (because to them, it did), and failing to realize that the character hadn't made it into the larger cultural zeitgeist.

Herald is only marginally better, referring to a messenger, or a British military officer with very boring duties.

It also sounds like Harold, which is just a name and one that's fallen out of favour in recent decades (sorry Grandpa.)
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ares » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:11 am

Given their similar powersets (sonic based abilities that can warp space), I would have made some kind of link between Herald and Tyroc, like Gabriel's Horn actually altered Mal's biology and made those powers into an inheritable trait.

I'd also say "Herald" is lightyears better than "Hornblower", at least within comic circles "Herald of Galactus" has given the term at least some measure of respectability.

Young Justice went an interesting route by having Mal go with the Guardian identity, though without the exo-skeleton. And it honestly isn't a bad legacy change up.

And yeah, the Titans went through a weird phase where they ditched their costumes and were just jumpsuit wearing kids working for some wealthy philanthropist, but that thankfully didn't last long.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ares » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am

Ares wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:41 am
I kind of like how The Order of the Stick explained it:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html
To elaborate here, I think that Dick and Kory's relationship worked because, while it started out as two kids in a rough place connecting with each other and falling in love, they did bring out better qualities in the other and were pushing each other towards a kind of emotional equilibrium. The Nightwing that had his own solo series and proved immensely popular was not the same Robin who had been so serious and brooding during the Wolfman/Perez era Titans. He was still capable of being serious, but also was more relaxed, funny and passionate about life. It could be explained that his time with Kory was actually extremely healthy for him and made him more well-adjusted as a person. And if she'd gotten similar exposure, Kory could have shown to be able to reign herself in, not always lead with her emotions, and become more responsible. They would have actually matured into a very stable and healthy couple without losing the aspects that made them who they were. It would have been a relationship based on character growth and felt organic.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Goldar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:09 am

Hornblower?!? Really?? Well, maybe that name was okay for back then, but today, I don't think that name would befit a hero.

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Bumblebee

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:48 am

Image
Image
Image
ImageImageImage

Okay, that hairstyle is a cute choice.

BUMBLEBEE (Karen Beecher)
Created By:
Bob Rozakis & Irv Novick
First Appearance: Teen Titans #45 (Dec. 1976)
Role: Token Black Girl
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Doom Patrol
PL 8 (107)
STRENGTH
1/5 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 5 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+9)
Insight 4 (+6)
Stealth 3 (+6)
Technology 5 (+10)
Vehicles 2 (+5)

Advantages:
Favoured Environment (Airborne), Ranged Attack 5, Teamwork

Powers:
"Bumblebee Suit" (Flaws: Removable) [29]
Enhanced Strength 4 (8)
Protection 6 (6)
Sonic Blast 8 (16) -- (17)
AE: "Electric Stings" Blast 4 (Feats: Accurate) (Extras: Multiattack) (13)
Flight 5 (60 mph) (Flaws: Winged) (5)
-- (36 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Bumblebee Suit +6 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Sonic Blast +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Electrical Stings +10 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +2 (+8 Suit), Fortitude +4, Will +6

Complications:
Relationship (Mal Duncan)- Mal & Karen were the only two black people on their era of the Teen Titans, and so they ended up dating & then married.

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 20--10 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 29 / Defenses: 13 (107)

-Karen "Bumblebee" Beecher is a hilarious example of a complete lame-duck character whose existence in the supporting materials is a THOUSAND times more impactful than her appearances in the actual original medium. And all because she's basically DC's only "Black Superheroine" of note- the ultimate Diversity Hire for every DC Cartoon, Movie or whatever. Which is funny, because you'd think being a Black Female Scientist created in 1976 would earn a character a little more of a rep, but no.

-Karen Beecher started out as Mal Duncan's girlfriend in the 1970s Teen Titans book, and was a scientist (pretty unusual for a WOMAN in 1970s comics, much less a black one). She built her Bumblebee costume initially to engage in some Superdickery- attacking the Titans so she'd look cool. They were impressed enough to offer her membership (WTF?), but she and Mal soon left and joined the short-lived Titans West team. The character was more or less retired with Mal (vanishing for the entire 1980s, save for a one-shot at Donna Troy's wedding), never having mattered much to comics. She got a funny "ouch" character moment when, during the JLA/Titans Technis Imperative storyline, she got beat up by Zauriel, who then got thumped by Supergirl, who made fun of him for picking on such a weak superhero with "What can BUMBLEBEE do to you?" (the JLA team was WAY more powerful than the Titans one, with Zauriel handily defeating both Karen & Supergirl simultaneously).

-This becomes super hilarious when the character becomes a recurring element on the Teen Titans cartoon series, and a major supporting character in the DC SuperHero Girls line of dolls and webisodes. Because, see, she's the ONLY ESTABLISHED BLACK HEROINE THEY CAN USE (edit: okay, so apparently Vixen is being used in the Live Action stuff instead, so she might be bigger), so any time you need a Diverse Cast Of Characters, it's basically Bumblebee & Katana or nuthin'. And this essentially means that her activities in the supporting materials far outstrip her stuff in her medium of origin- the comics.

-That said, there have been a handful of attempts at making something out of her. After Infinite Crisis, she and Mal were altered by Zeta Beams- she was shrunk to six inches in height for a time. This led to her joining the Doom Patrol, taking on a look more similar to her cartoon self. She was divorced from Mal off-panel and continued on with the team... but because it's The Doom Patrol, it was cancelled. She showed up pregnant in the "DC Rebirth" era, with Mal again, and it turns out she can shoot Energy Blasts somehow.

-Generic, low-pointed PL 8-balanced Powersuit character. All her caps are hit offensively and defensively, but her lack of extra Skills and Advantages hurt her bad here. The fact that she's weak on the ground and in melee also help in keeping her way under points. She's also super-smart, in that "I built one thing and then never touched science again" kind of way that is so common in comics.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:43 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Spam » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:51 am

Ares wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:11 am
Given their similar powersets (sonic based abilities that can warp space), I would have made some kind of link between Herald and Tyroc, like Gabriel's Horn actually altered Mal's biology and made those powers into an inheritable trait.
Is bad taste in costumes also a genetic trait?

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by greycrusader » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am

Uh...I think Vixen long since eclipsed Bumblebee as the company's most prominent black superheroine, Jab.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 am

greycrusader wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am
Uh...I think Vixen long since eclipsed Bumblebee as the company's most prominent black superheroine, Jab.
Where else has Vixen shown up? Bumblebee was in Young Justice, Teen Titans and DC Superhero Girls, making her rather prominent in outside materials. Vixen was on one of the 12-person JLA rosters- where else has she been recently?

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ares » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:18 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 am
greycrusader wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am
Uh...I think Vixen long since eclipsed Bumblebee as the company's most prominent black superheroine, Jab.
Where else has Vixen shown up? Bumblebee was in Young Justice, Teen Titans and DC Superhero Girls, making her rather prominent in outside materials. Vixen was on one of the 12-person JLA rosters- where else has she been recently?
She showed up on the CW recently, getting an 4 part animated mini-series, a guest appearance on Arrow and a regular role on Legends of Tomorrow.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ken » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:21 am

Ares wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:18 am
Ares wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:41 am
I kind of like how The Order of the Stick explained it:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0223.html
To elaborate here, I think that Dick and Kory's relationship worked because, while it started out as two kids in a rough place connecting with each other and falling in love, they did bring out better qualities in the other and were pushing each other towards a kind of emotional equilibrium. The Nightwing that had his own solo series and proved immensely popular was not the same Robin who had been so serious and brooding during the Wolfman/Perez era Titans. He was still capable of being serious, but also was more relaxed, funny and passionate about life. It could be explained that his time with Kory was actually extremely healthy for him and made him more well-adjusted as a person. And if she'd gotten similar exposure, Kory could have shown to be able to reign herself in, not always lead with her emotions, and become more responsible. They would have actually matured into a very stable and healthy couple without losing the aspects that made them who they were. It would have been a relationship based on character growth and felt organic.
It could be explained....
If she'd gotten... Could have shown...
They would have...
It would have...

I can't debate what might have been.

What I can say is that I was reading 'New Teen Titans' when it was new. Hell, I read the Rozakis-era Teen Titans when they were new. (I owned the issue with that awful blue-and-white Hornblower costume, off the racks.)

I was 12 when I bought 'New Teen Titans' #1 at my neighborhood grocery store. I was almost 14 when we got our first direct sales shop in the area and I could pick up the book steadily. It was issue #21. "The Titans Hunt" began as I was finishing college ("New Titans" #70).

During all that time, Dick and Kory were never written as two people who got past the eros stage. They sounded like most of the people around me. Like I sounded on occasion. They sounded like the drama of two teenagers being 'in love'.

What they didn't sound like were my two friends who were married in the summer of '89 and are still married today. Or the other two friends who were also married that summer (about 3 weeks apart) who are still married today.

They did however, kind of sound like the friends who were also married the summer of '89... and were divorced by '91.

If Marv Wolfman had been writing them with the intent of letting them actually grow and change, they might have been believable as a long term couple. He wasn't. He was writing soap opera. He was writing a serialised story with no clear ending in mind. And the status quo for Dick and Kory, the condition they would always return back to is the uncertainty of their relationship. One step forward then two steps back. Then maybe two steps forward and one step back.

And Mephisto knows what happens if you let serialised characters develop past their status quo into a mature relationship.

I'd be amazed that they actually allowed Donna and Terry to be in an adult, mature relationship that led to marriage if I didn't know that Terry was a writer stand-in.

You're right, the 'Nightwing' writers did let Dick be less uptight than he had been. They looked at where he was, and what he had been through, and made some reasonable decisions.

And despite the fact that I never bought into the "Dick-and-Kory Forever", I will say the Dick-and-Kory match-up made more sense than the Kory-Franklin coupling. Or the Dick-and-Duela coupling. Or Dick-and-Betty...
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:44 am

Man, if you’d have told me that MAL DUNCAN AND KAREN BEECHER could sustain an entire day’s worth of comments, I’d have thought you were nuts. This is a surprise, lol.

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Re: Herald

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:55 am

Ken wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:03 am
Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm
Now, he is called "Hornblower"... which is the shittiest name in super-hero history. He soon returns to the Guardian name.

Post-Crisis Mal Duncan:
-Hilariously, even MAL DUNCAN is changed by the Crisis. He now never took on the identity of the Guardian, and Gabriel's Horn is now a space-warping device that he took from a villain called The Gargoyle. He is now just called "Herald".
It's kind of a cultural thing. Between 1937 and 1967, C. S. Forester had a series of novels and short stories about a early 19th century British Naval officer named Horatio Hornblower. So it is entirely possible that Bob Rozakis (writer, born 1951) and Julie Schwartz (editor, born 1915) had read those novels, and therefore thought "Hornblower" sounded like a heroic name (because to them, it did), and failing to realize that the character hadn't made it into the larger cultural zeitgeist.

Herald is only marginally better, referring to a messenger, or a British military officer with very boring duties.

It also sounds like Harold, which is just a name and one that's fallen out of favour in recent decades (sorry Grandpa.)
I figured it was something like that. Thing is, "Hornblower" doesn't sound intimidating at all. It's just... a description of someone's job.
I can't debate what might have been.

What I can say is that I was reading 'New Teen Titans' when it was new. Hell, I read the Rozakis-era Teen Titans when they were new. (I owned the issue with that awful blue-and-white Hornblower costume, off the racks.)

I was 12 when I bought 'New Teen Titans' #1 at my neighborhood grocery store. I was almost 14 when we got our first direct sales shop in the area and I could pick up the book steadily. It was issue #21. "The Titans Hunt" began as I was finishing college ("New Titans" #70).

During all that time, Dick and Kory were never written as two people who got past the eros stage. They sounded like most of the people around me. Like I sounded on occasion. They sounded like the drama of two teenagers being 'in love'.

What they didn't sound like were my two friends who were married in the summer of '89 and are still married today. Or the other two friends who were also married that summer (about 3 weeks apart) who are still married today.

They did however, kind of sound like the friends who were also married the summer of '89... and were divorced by '91.

If Marv Wolfman had been writing them with the intent of letting them actually grow and change, they might have been believable as a long term couple. He wasn't. He was writing soap opera. He was writing a serialised story with no clear ending in mind. And the status quo for Dick and Kory, the condition they would always return back to is the uncertainty of their relationship. One step forward then two steps back. Then maybe two steps forward and one step back.

And Mephisto knows what happens if you let serialised characters develop past their status quo into a mature relationship.

I'd be amazed that they actually allowed Donna and Terry to be in an adult, mature relationship that led to marriage if I didn't know that Terry was a writer stand-in.

You're right, the 'Nightwing' writers did let Dick be less uptight than he had been. They looked at where he was, and what he had been through, and made some reasonable decisions.

And despite the fact that I never bought into the "Dick-and-Kory Forever", I will say the Dick-and-Kory match-up made more sense than the Kory-Franklin coupling. Or the Dick-and-Duela coupling. Or Dick-and-Betty...
I can see this one- they were two young kids who were into the sheer passion of it- hell, Starfire's entire BEING is about throwing oneself into such things. It was made very clear that they went to bed with each other without really having a full understanding of what the other was. Even later, Dick was a bit astonished at how quickly she could turn on a time and try to blow someone up.

I found them fun because they complimented each other, personality-wise. Their interactions as adults were always very fun- much more fun than those between them and most other characters (though Dick & Barbara got on really well, and I was still a fan of that coupling... which also got tossed into the "They can never be together- EVER!" wringer). And their history makes every Titans story in which they DON'T hook up... just kind of like someone's got one hand tied behind their back.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:04 am

Ares wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:18 am
Jabroniville wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:12 am
greycrusader wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:01 am
Uh...I think Vixen long since eclipsed Bumblebee as the company's most prominent black superheroine, Jab.
Where else has Vixen shown up? Bumblebee was in Young Justice, Teen Titans and DC Superhero Girls, making her rather prominent in outside materials. Vixen was on one of the 12-person JLA rosters- where else has she been recently?
She showed up on the CW recently, getting an 4 part animated mini-series, a guest appearance on Arrow and a regular role on Legends of Tomorrow.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, that makes sense. I have absolutely zero involvement with any of the Live Action DC stuff, so I've no idea how any of that went. I didn't realize they had a Vixen at all, let alone used her so prominently :).

Still, Bumblebee got a doll by Mattel. That's something :).

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Loren Jupiter

Post by Jabroniville » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:40 am

Image

LOREN JUPITER
Created By:
Robert Kanigher
First Appearance: The Teen Titans #25 (Feb. 1970)
Role: Wealthy Backer
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans (ally)

-For a time in the 1970s, the Teen Titans had a wealthy backer- Loren Jupiter, whose "pad" was the gang's hangout as well. His thing was training a "new generation of young people" to create a better America. Years later, the character would reappear helping out the Atom-era Dan Jurgens Titans, though he frequently clashed with the Atom. His assistant at this point was Lilith Clay, who had been kinda rumored to be his daughter. Jupiter would discover another child, though, as a long-lost son named Jarrod, aka "Haze", attacked the Titans. Greg Rucka said in an interview that Jupiter was initially going to be the guy behind Checkmate, and then the O.M.A.C. Project (and thus, the killer of the Blue Beetle instead of Maxwell Lord), but over the course of the story, he realized that Lord was a better choice given his powers and history. And Jupiter was therefore realized to be the long-lost father of Lilith (whose mystery parentage was a big part of her character). And then she died.

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