Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Tempest! Hawk & Dove! The Flash!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Jabroniville
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Re: Starfire

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:59 am

Ares wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:12 am
Also Jab, on the odd chance you hadn't seen it, Starfire now has her own Sailor Moon style magic girl transformation sequence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFaHzCuYmLA

I've never really gotten the idea of Kory having a skirt tho. That just seems weird.
Haha, yes- I find it funny that the thing most parodied about Sailor Moon (the Stock Animation) also results in its most famous export- the Transformation Sequence.

"Tamaran Crisis Powahhhh... MAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE UP!!!"
Pretty much. I've never really understood the idea of a character being "hard to write", because either they have a large body of work you can research, or they have relatively few appearances. Regardless of which one, either there are core consistencies that you can pick up on, or the character is written inconsistently from one writer to the next. If the former, you can gain an understanding of the character and figure out how to make them work for you. And if not, then you're free to make them however you want and no one will complain.

If you do the latter and people are complaining? Then the character had some core consistencies that you should have picked up on and were just very lazy.

Starfire is like you said: passionate. Everything she does has an intensity to it. She feels her emotions strongly, love to her friends, intense love to her romantic partners, and anger to her enemies.
I feel like goofy panels where "tiny plates over her nips" Starfire casually asking a man she just met if he wanted to have sex with her is what allowed the backlash, and the modern era of "Ugly people in full clothing" to take hold so powerfully over at Marvel in particular. It was like... that was SO EGREGIOUS that it lionized the movement and got even people on the fence to turn on it.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am

greycrusader wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:33 am
The (Teen) Titans...yeah, another example of DC absolutely blowing the chance to build a multi-generational team-book franchise the way Marvel has with the Avengers, X-Men, and even Fantastic Four (which is mostly a nothing book now in terms of influence, but had a forty year run). TitI remember just how red-hot the Titans were at one time, and how AMAZINGLY quickly the book declined in quality and sales. Now, the X-Men has had its share of terrible writing periods (Chuck Austen and Scott Lobdell, anyone?) but by then the characters were already popular, well-established, and (perhaps most importantly) highly merchandised enough to survive the low points and nonsensical storylines (it also helps to have a kajillion different books out, I suppose), while the Titans just lapsed into obscurity if they weren't Nightwing, Kid Flash/Flash III, or Robin III (Tim Drake). Then DiDio got control over the company and decided even Dick and Wally had to go, though he got talked out of the former. And yeah, the JLA/Titans cross-over was incredibly well-done, and almost promised a genuine rebirth of the team....but as Jab noted, numerous editorial decisions ended up tanking the series AGAIN.
And while the Cartoon Network iterations have actually proven fairly popular (and at least keep the characters in the public eye), both Teen Titans and Young Justice essentially re-wrote the entire roster's personalities.

All my best.
It's a PHENOMENAL example of how to utterly destroy a once-popular book. Both the Titans and the Legion dropped in popularity badly around the same time (people STILL fight me when I bash the Giffen-only Five-Years Later Legion, and I'm like... THAT RUN GOT THE BOOK CANCELLED!! THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF FAILURE!!!), largely through the old creators kind of running out of interesting stuff to do.

The X-Men comparison is interesting, because of the obvious analogous things- The writer being on the book for a long time, iconic characters getting shuffled out, etc... but the X-Men SUCCEEDED with their newbies, as Gambit, Jubilee and others were very popular (for a while, anyhow), and even the Original X-Men were successfully re-acclimated to the roster. But Wolfman was doing characters like Pantha, Red Star & Mirage while Claremont was making THOSE guys.

And, of course, the X-Men made a cartoon. And a big toyline. Meanwhile, DC basically de-pushed the book for YEARS, gave it the axe, and more... while pushing only Batman. Notably, while doing the research for the top-tier Titans, I realized that Dick Grayson and the Flash were the ONLY ONES to maintain any kind of a presence between 1993 and 1999, when the book got rebooted. EVERYONE ELSE save maybe Donna was shoved under the radar into total obscurity- Starfire, Changeling, Raven and Cyborg missed out on almost an entire decade of relevancy when they were once on a top book of the '80s.. So we got what we got- what could have been major DC characters didn't become "Mainstream Popular" until the 2000s.
PS: Yeah Jab-I'd likely tag Starfire's last 2-3 ranks of STR with the Unreliable [limited uses) flaw, or put them in an array with her star-bolts, or something. The super-strength comes up almost NEVER (as you mentioned, even her DC Wiki omits it) and was sort of redundant anyway given the team Koriand'r is associated with (since Donna, Vic, and even Garfield can all do STR-related stuff more effectively). A flying blaster who also also has formidable martial skills is pretty effective combo anyway, without making her truly super-strong. Granted, there are LOTS of DC characters who won the superpowers lottery, but the Titans aren't supposed to be the ensemble of world-beaters.
It's so weird. For years DC and I both had bios that indicated a "proper" Starfire... until I researched and realized it wasn't so, and then they suddenly made her REALLY powerful. In the Wolfman/Perez era, I think only one issue I have features her being exceptionally strong. And this was the era when comics were descriptive enough that when someone had a power, you KNEW about it.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:09 am

Ken wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:14 am
To be completely honest, I never cared much for the Dick & Kory pairing. It always felt more like a "of course the captain of the football team is going to be banging the hottest cheerleader" relationship.

It didn't feel wrong per se. But the book was called New Teen Titans. They seemed like teenagers who were in love the way teenagers can be. They always seemed like a relationship that was doomed to failure, because they didn't understand one another, they did come from two different worlds, both literally and figuratively. Kory always seemed to be upset that Dick was so reserved. And Dick was often uncomfortable with how passionate she could be. I know it was meant to be some kind of 'opposites attract' thing, but overall it came across like there would be the 'irreconcilable differences'.

In order for things to work out long term, they'd both have to change so much that neither one would be recognisable as themselves.

It seemed like the kind of relationship that would burn brightly for a few years, and then burn out. Of course, in comics, "a few years" can be forever.

Of course, Romeo & Juliet have a sense of endless love. But actually they died after four days together.

Once Dick matured post Titans, his not being with Kory made sense to me.
I can kind of see them eventually breaking up, but they could have also matured into accepting each other. ANYTHING's better than the "well they kinda mess around for a bit before we Kitty/Colossus them in 1992" or whenever their spoiled wedding was.

Never mind that Dick & Barbara now do the EXACT SAME THING, thus rendering the whole thing pointless.

Also, WOOOO-- 1,000 pages! I was afraid for a sec that'd break the site :).

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by squirrelly-sama » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:21 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:09 am
Ken wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:14 am
To be completely honest, I never cared much for the Dick & Kory pairing. It always felt more like a "of course the captain of the football team is going to be banging the hottest cheerleader" relationship.

It didn't feel wrong per se. But the book was called New Teen Titans. They seemed like teenagers who were in love the way teenagers can be. They always seemed like a relationship that was doomed to failure, because they didn't understand one another, they did come from two different worlds, both literally and figuratively. Kory always seemed to be upset that Dick was so reserved. And Dick was often uncomfortable with how passionate she could be. I know it was meant to be some kind of 'opposites attract' thing, but overall it came across like there would be the 'irreconcilable differences'.

In order for things to work out long term, they'd both have to change so much that neither one would be recognisable as themselves.

It seemed like the kind of relationship that would burn brightly for a few years, and then burn out. Of course, in comics, "a few years" can be forever.

Of course, Romeo & Juliet have a sense of endless love. But actually they died after four days together.

Once Dick matured post Titans, his not being with Kory made sense to me.
I can kind of see them eventually breaking up, but they could have also matured into accepting each other. ANYTHING's better than the "well they kinda mess around for a bit before we Kitty/Colossus them in 1992" or whenever their spoiled wedding was.

Never mind that Dick & Barbara now do the EXACT SAME THING, thus rendering the whole thing pointless.

Also, WOOOO-- 1,000 pages! I was afraid for a sec that'd break the site :).
As long as you don't change your name it probably shouldn't.

That may sound like a joke but another forum I was on once crashed because one of their most frequent posters changed their name and the forum broke when attempting to alter all the records for every post.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ken » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:28 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am
Notably, while doing the research for the top-tier Titans, I realized that Dick Grayson and the Flash were the ONLY ONES to maintain any kind of a presence between 1993 and 1999, when the book got rebooted. EVERYONE ELSE save maybe Donna was shoved under the radar into total obscurity- Starfire, Changeling, Raven and Cyborg missed out on almost an entire decade of relevancy when they were once on a top book of the '80s.
Curiously, the Titan who received the third most exposure in the 1993-1999 timeframe was Garth, who had been almost criminally ignored during the Wolfman/Perez run (But, Garth seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of comics. He gets no respect.) Peter David pushed Aqualad back into Aquaman's supporting cast in Aquaman (vol. 5) #1 in 1994. And in 1996 Garth became Tempest in the Tempest limited series.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Goldar » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:34 am

:o Congrats on 1,000 pages!! :o

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:38 pm

Ken wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:28 am
Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am
Notably, while doing the research for the top-tier Titans, I realized that Dick Grayson and the Flash were the ONLY ONES to maintain any kind of a presence between 1993 and 1999, when the book got rebooted. EVERYONE ELSE save maybe Donna was shoved under the radar into total obscurity- Starfire, Changeling, Raven and Cyborg missed out on almost an entire decade of relevancy when they were once on a top book of the '80s.
Curiously, the Titan who received the third most exposure in the 1993-1999 timeframe was Garth, who had been almost criminally ignored during the Wolfman/Perez run (But, Garth seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of comics. He gets no respect.) Peter David pushed Aqualad back into Aquaman's supporting cast in Aquaman (vol. 5) #1 in 1994. And in 1996 Garth became Tempest in the Tempest limited series.
Yeah, Tempest was an odd one- he got almost ZERO play during the '80s (they even knocked off his girlfriend in the Crisis!), the Teen Titans book largely ignored him... but then Phil Jiminez did some stuff and he got play in Aquaman.

Donna herself was in Wonder Woman and was the chosen girlfriend in Green Lantern, as well as popping up in Darkstars, which is why I used her. I don't really know how prominent Tempest was during the time, as Aquaman's book was lower-tier than GL & WW's were.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by greycrusader » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:54 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:07 am
It's a PHENOMENAL example of how to utterly destroy a once-popular book. Both the Titans and the Legion dropped in popularity badly around the same time (people STILL fight me when I bash the Giffen-only Five-Years Later Legion, and I'm like... THAT RUN GOT THE BOOK CANCELLED!! THAT IS THE DEFINITION OF FAILURE!!!), largely through the old creators kind of running out of interesting stuff to do.

The X-Men comparison is interesting, because of the obvious analogous things- The writer being on the book for a long time, iconic characters getting shuffled out, etc... but the X-Men SUCCEEDED with their newbies, as Gambit, Jubilee and others were very popular (for a while, anyhow), and even the Original X-Men were successfully re-acclimated to the roster. But Wolfman was doing characters like Pantha, Red Star & Mirage while Claremont was making THOSE guys.

And, of course, the X-Men made a cartoon. And a big toyline. Meanwhile, DC basically de-pushed the book for YEARS, gave it the axe, and more... while pushing only Batman. Notably, while doing the research for the top-tier Titans, I realized that Dick Grayson and the Flash were the ONLY ONES to maintain any kind of a presence between 1993 and 1999, when the book got rebooted. EVERYONE ELSE save maybe Donna was shoved under the radar into total obscurity- Starfire, Changeling, Raven and Cyborg missed out on almost an entire decade of relevancy when they were once on a top book of the '80s.. So we got what we got- what could have been major DC characters didn't become "Mainstream Popular" until the 2000s.
Good point about the relative success of the new characters-even leaving aside the MASSIVE popularity of Wolverine, the X-Men cast intro'd Sprite/Shadowcat, Gambit, Rogue, a revamped Dazzler, etc., etc., while the ONLY new New Titan who worked and had popularity was Terra; and while the Judas Contract was a great story arc (and gave us Nightwing!)...turning Terra into a one-note psychopath and blaming a 16 year girl for "seducing" the middle-aged Deathstroke...that seemed skeevy to me even when I was reading it as a teenager. And her death just seemed like a replay of the Jean Grey-Phoenix finale. And Jericho? Oh cripes. Proof even George Perez isn't always on his A-game with character design-a white guy afro? with muttonchops? And a costume consisting of a purple vest and puffy white shirt? Also, non-speaking characters are tough to pull off, and I still couldn't tell you anything about his personality except he was artistic and apparently irresistible to women. NONE of the later Titans worked, and the only other "original" who got rehabbed a little was Speedy (X-Men managed to do something with Angel, Beast, Havok, and Polaris, leaving only Iceman as pretty much left behind).

And yes-the "5 year gap" Legion proved a slow death march for the LSH, after being around in one shape or form since the 1950s; while it had some interesting ideas, it radically shifted the premise and tone of the whole series, and having so many important plot points happen "off-panel" with a huge cast was a real storytelling problem, requiring a LOT of exposition. And the Biernbaums (who did the dialogue and collaborated with Giffen on story ideas for the first 36 issues, before taking over entirely) added a LOT of LSH fandom inspired ideas, most of which should have remained fan fic stuff. The LSH never regained the heat it once had, though the reboot and "three"-boot versions had six and four year runs, respectively, and the team's had multiple mini-series and cross-overs as well. But again...it once had monster sales, close to X-Men levels. And the original version is pretty much been in comic book obscurity for twenty five years now.

All my best.

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Re: Robin (Jason Todd)

Post by Woodclaw » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:38 pm

KorokoMystia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:55 am
ROBIN III (Jason Todd, aka The Red Hood)
Created By:
Gerry Conway & Don Newton
First Appearance: Batman #357 (March 1983)
Role: Unpopular Replacement Character, Kid Sidekick
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans
I heard a rumor once that someone who really didn't like him actually set up an autodialer to kill Jason (since it was set up so that there were two numbers: One you dialed if you wanted him to live, the other if you wanted him to die. They also even wrote and drew two different endings, so there was one of him being badly beaten, but still alive), but I dunno if that's true.
That's a bit unlikely considering that Jason wad killed on a difference of barely 70 votes on a pool of 11,000 voters, acvording to Dennis O'Neill.
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Re: Robin (Jason Todd)

Post by Ken » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:16 pm

Woodclaw wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:38 pm
KorokoMystia wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 pm
Jabroniville wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:55 am
ROBIN III (Jason Todd, aka The Red Hood)
Created By:
Gerry Conway & Don Newton
First Appearance: Batman #357 (March 1983)
Role: Unpopular Replacement Character, Kid Sidekick
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans
I heard a rumor once that someone who really didn't like him actually set up an autodialer to kill Jason (since it was set up so that there were two numbers: One you dialed if you wanted him to live, the other if you wanted him to die. They also even wrote and drew two different endings, so there was one of him being badly beaten, but still alive), but I dunno if that's true.
That's a bit unlikely considering that Jason wad killed on a difference of barely 70 votes on a pool of 11,000 voters, acvording to Dennis O'Neill.
How does that make it unlikely? This was 1988 era auto-dialer, and 1988 phone costs. Trying to fix the vote, but not being overwhelming because of tech and costs seems entirely plausible.
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Re: The Teen Titans (Part 1)

Post by Bladewind » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:08 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:42 am
Oh, whoops. I totally missed this one last time. Sorry, Bladewind!
No worries ! I was just throwing in my two cents !
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Herald

Post by Jabroniville » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm

Image
Image
ImageImage
Image

Dear sweet God in heaven. I've seen some ugly costumes in my day, but this guy is like the Da Vinci of garbage outfits.

HERALD (Malcolm "Mal" Duncan, aka Vox, The Guardian II, Hornblower)
Created By:
Robert Kanigher
First Appearance: Teen Titans #26 (March 1970)
Role: Token Black Guy
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Doom Patrol
PL 8 (93)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 1 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 4 (+7)
Deception 3 (+5)
Expertise (Musician) 6 (+8)
Expertise (Club Owner) 3 (+4)
Insight 2 (+4)
Perception 2 (+4)
Persuasion 3 (+5)
Ranged Combat (Gabriel's Horn) 3 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Defensive Roll, Ranged Attack 3, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Gabriel's Horn" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [12]
Sonic Blast 8 (16) -- (20 points)
  • AE: Dazzle Hearing 8 (16)
  • AE: Dazzle Hearing 8 (Extras: Area- Audio Perception) (Flaws: Touch Range) (16)
  • AE: "Stunning Sound" Affliction 8 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged) (16)
  • AE: Movement 3 (Dimensional Travel 3) (Extras: Attack & Normal Version) (12)
Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Sonic Blast +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Dazzle Hearing & Stunning Sound +8 (+8 Ranged Affliction, DC 18)
Area Dazzle +8 (+8 Affliction, DC 18)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +9 (DC 19), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +3 (+4 D.Roll), Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Responsibility (Normal Human)- Mal had issues hanging around with the Titans at first, since he had no super-powers (granted, neither did Robin nor Speedy...). When he found The Guardian's super-powered harness, he got over it.
Relationship (Karen Beecher, aka "Bumblebee")- Mal & Karen were the only two black people on their era of the Teen Titans, and so they ended up dating & then married.

Total: Abilities: 48 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 7 / Powers: 12 / Defenses: 12 (93)

Pre-Crisis Mal Duncan:
-Mal Duncan's a character I don't really get, but then, he only warrants inclusion in Titans-based stuff because he & his wife Bumblebee were on the Titans in those terrible post "jive talkin'" sixties years, and before the awesome Wolfman/Perez era. He and Bumblebee were part of the "Token Black Guy Era" of the 1970s, which saw Peanuts, Dennis the Menace, Archie Comics and countless other things introduced Black Best Friends because the post-Civil Rights era had finally made it mainstream enough to at least INCLUDE black people in things. Most of these characters were fairly bland "Nice Guy" types who didn't really get up to much or have much characterization, largely because writers were afraid of disastrous things like accidentally making them look like caricatures (like Dennis the Menace did, earning some serious pushback).

-Mal was introduced to the Titans by saving them from a street gang called the Hell Hawks, beating their leader in a boxing match. The Titans then recruit him, but he feels unworthy due to his lack of abilities- he thankfully finds an exoskeleton that enhances his strength, and calls himself The Guardian, after the Golden Age hero. However, a recurring element in his heroic history pops up, as he gains a NEW identity when a supposedly-hallucinatory battle against the Angel of Death results in him awakening with the mythical Gabriel's Horn in his hand. He is thus permitted to live... so long as he never loses another fight- it grants him unexplained super-powers whenever the odds are against him in battle. Now, he is called "Hornblower"... which is the shittiest name in super-hero history. He soon returns to the Guardian name.

Post-Crisis Mal Duncan:
-Hilariously, even MAL DUNCAN is changed by the Crisis. He now never took on the identity of the Guardian, and Gabriel's Horn is now a space-warping device that he took from a villain called The Gargoyle. He is now just called "Herald". Mal, fearing the powers of the Horn (which might allow Gargoyle to escape a limbo-like dimension), retires from superheroics and settles down with Bumblebee. Mal is essentially 100% ignored in the Wolfman/Perez Era Titans, and is thus one of the least-utilized members in team history- the couple's only appearance in that time period is a one-off at Donna Troy's wedding, which sees a very fat, retired Mal humbly announce that his condition is because of his wife being an excellent cook!

-The character thus makes zero appearances until the *2000s*, popping up in some one-offs alongside Bumblebee, who later gains a bigger push thanks to the fact that she's DC's highest-profile black heroine. Mal is thought lost during Infinite Crisis, but returns with some cybernetic implants after Gabriel's Horn blew up in his face, damaging his lungs and vocal cords. As "Vox", he joins the new Doom Patrol alongside Bumblebee, and he can now create energy blasts and open dimensional portals and stuff. Then, casually, the book reveals that he and Karen are now divorced.

-The New 52 utilizes him as an award-winning film composer, but announces that he was still one of the original Teen Titans, as Herald.

Mal's Stats:
-Mal's a cheap PL 8 (he adds eight points when he becomes Vox, and has the Gabriel's Horn as part of his body). A decent Blast attack at his Power Level, and he's a pretty good boxer in hand-to-hand (he once beat Azrael in a boxing match, though I'm not sure of the pugilistic skills of the Angel of Death), but he's hardly versatile or particularly dangerous. There's a reason he doesn't pop up much nowadays.

As Guardian, Mal had the following gear instead, making him a PL 7 Mini-Powerhouse:
"Guardian Exoskeleton" (Flaws: Removable) [10]
Enhanced Strength 4 (8)
Protection 4 (4)
-- (12 points)

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Horsenhero » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:12 pm

The funny thing about Mal is he joined the Titans when all of them were operating without powers. While most of you youngsters are too...well...young...to know is that the Titans went through a period where they went without costumes and looked more like a super-hero version of a beat poetry group (or maybe the Partridge Family). They wore color coordinated identical outfits (not skin tight) and no masks and didn't refer to one another by their "super" codenames. Since nobody on the team was really using their powers (though Wally, Garth and Donna hadn't lost them), it didn't matter that Mal had none.

Then came the series reboot in the mid-70's where the first villain they fought was Dr. Light. The writers wanted to use Mal (DC's only black teen hero at the time), but since everything was "costumes and powers" giving Mal his own shtick became necessary. So first he got Guardian's costume (and a strength enhancing harness from the TT trophy room...I think it was supposed to have been a villain's, but they never state which one). Then, since harness or not, both Aqualad and Wonder Girl were stronger, they decided to change his shtick and came up with the "Hornblower" thing...which was Tyroc levels of awful.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Salamander! Nightwing! Flamebird! Starfire!)

Post by Ken » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:29 pm

In all fairness, Mal and Karen had started dating during the long gap between the early '70s cancellation and the mid '70s restart. They were a couple before Karen was introduced.

Last year I'd had the random thought of "what if it had been Karen's experiment that had damaged Mal's body" rather than Silas and Victor. I was bored.
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Re: Herald

Post by Shock » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:54 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:51 pm
Image
I love the backhanded "We're not responsible for this abomination" editor's note

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