Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ares
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:59 am Hey- question:

Has anyone here read interviews regarding the reboots and the decision making processes for them? Like why the obvious "Soft Reboot" of the SW6 kids was just dumped and they got rebooted fully? I mean, the reasons are easy to guess, but I'd like to get takes from the writers.
From what I understand, the SW6 batch was conceived of by the creative team as a way to recapture the original spirit of the Legion while also having a new mystery.

Giffen eventually revealed his plan: The SW6 kids were suppose to be the original Legionnaires, who the Dominators had kidnapped during their early years and kept in stasis tanks, while the Legion we'd been reading about from the point after Nemesis Kid joined and betrayed the team were clones created by the Dominators. The clones had allowed things to get so bad and allow for the Dominators to get to the point they were at due to programming by the Dominators. The SW6 kids return would cause the Dominators to activate a failsafe that would cause the clones to attack the Legionnaires, and during the fight, who would live and who would die would be determined by names being pulled out of a hat. The surviving adults would be freed from their programming and stay on Earth to help re-build things, while the surviving SW6/Original Legionnaires would have a new outpost in space where they could protect against future Dominator attacks and be able to go on more classic Legion style adventures.

The editors told Giffen "No", so Giffen decided to just quit the book entirely. However, before he left, he blew up the Earth because he knew his editors wouldn't be paying too much attention to his departure issue. I repeat, HE BLEW UP THE PLANET EARTH and screwed over any writers that would come after him solely out of spite and because he knew he could get away with it.

After Giffen left, what they instead did was turn Earth into this huge space station composed of different domes that contained famous cities and locations, with the SW6 kids acting as the Legionnaires to protect what was left of Earth. That lasted about 17-18 issues, but by about issue 14 or 15 plans were made for the Zero Hour event. The relative popularity of the Legionnaires book and the mess that had become the original Legion of Superheroes series convinced them to use Zero Hour as a fresh start.
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MacynSnow
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by MacynSnow »

And we all know how THAT clusterfudge turned out ,now don't we?........ ;)
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:23 am Nightgirl‘s entire species should have Innate Darkvision, since their homeworld is perpetually dark.

If I recall correctly, the official explanation for her power’s Daylight drawback is something to do with stellar radiation, so that starlight on Earth (and most other planets) at night is dispersed enough by our atmosphere that it’s no issue. In the vacuum of space, it becomes a problem.

They can’t just give her one of Wildfire’s spare containment suits because, well, c’mon, you’ve seen how she dresses. What group of red- (and/or green-) blooded teenagers would want to stop that!?

Why they don’t just have Brainy make some SPF9000 super-sunblock is a mystery for the ages.
I think it just comes down to redundancy (too many people with equivalent powers... even though those powers are AWESOME) and the writers not wanting her there. I mean, they obviously thought well enough of her to include her as a regular "Girlfriend" character.

I did include full Darkvision in her powers, though.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:08 am
Jabroniville wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:04 am All I remember from half-watching that movie was the weird realization that three iconic '80s movies (Police Academy, BTILC, Porky's) featured the same actress; one who didn't even become a name until she became Samantha Jones :).
C'mon, man, you can't have forgotten about Mannequin!

And, of course, there was that movie based a little know science fiction franchise: Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
That wasn't really iconic to the '80s, by my measure, though it was one of the good Trek movies (it was even-numbered- it HAD to be good!). Though Cattrall refusing to be the "Third Saavik" kind of made the heel turn obvious.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Timber Wolf! Cosmic Boy! Kid Quantum! Karate Kid!

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:00 pm It's easy to explain, handwave or even allow for those kind of tropes. For one, Lex Luthor and Dr. Doom would never go in for that sort of thing, barring the brief heel/face turns. One thing that pissed people off about Huldin's Black Panther, the idea that they had a cure for cancer and never shared it, is something I could see Doom or Luthor doing. Doom would reserve it only for the people under his rule, Lex would make it into something that allows the person to live but will require a life time of treatements to keep the cancer at bay, using it as a constant source of revenue rather than a one-shot treatment.

Meanwhile you can explain a lot of other things as simply being difficult to solve or the solutions are expensive or impractical. Reed Richards might not really be able to cure cancer, since his expertise and interests are in space / dimensional travel and exploration. He might not have the slightest idea of how to cure said cancer. Likewise, solutions for energy problems might be too expensive, or might have harmful side-effects. Like, maybe an ARC reactor that actually works will produce harmful radiation if its made too big or too close to many other ones. Tony's works because it's relatively small and contained inside a suit of power armor.
I did like the bit in The Death of Captain Marvel, where an angry Rick Jones more or less calls out the smart guys of the Marvel Universe for NOT curing cancer yet, and they're kind of a combination of "well, that's not ENTIRELY fair" and "... yeah, you're right". I mean, in their defense... they're busy. Saving the world from IMMEDIATE disasters.

The Marvel SAGA RPG had a neat bit in the Reed Richards Guide To Everything where Reed gives a list of things he (a super-genius) DOESN'T know, and while most of it is just clever stuff and "life's little mysteries", he adds "I don't know why I didn't attempt to cure cancer until one of my friends was dying from it."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:20 am From what I understand, the SW6 batch was conceived of by the creative team as a way to recapture the original spirit of the Legion while also having a new mystery.
Yeah, that does sound like it would be the reason. It was just so odd for me to read about it while going through the LOSH bios- you'd hear about the "SW6" Sun Boy taking the post-modern name "Inferno" before disappearing... and then the "Archie Legion" Sun Boy would be named... Inferno. It seemed like a clear "Mulligan". Part of why I wanted to see interviews by the creators was to get more insight into that era. Were the same people even writing the "Rebooted" version of the team?

John Byrne's whole explanation for completely f*cking over the Legion will never not be funny. He basically claims that he TOLD DC Editorial that his "removing Superboy from existence" plan would mess up the Legion, they said they'd deal with it, then they called him months later in a panic because "THIS SCREWS OVER THE LEGION!!!!". While I take anything Byrne says with a grain of salt (just submit "nothing was my fault, and I was screwed over by stupid asshole editors" for every answer), knowing what I do about comic book Editors, I have no problem believing that whatsoever.

It's just funny how DC's attempt to "Peter Parker" Superman completely wrecked what was once one of their most popular books- I glossed it over earlier on, but Legion of Super-Heroes was outsold by only one other DC book- The New Teen Titans. These two books were so big in the early '80s that they were chosen to be the "Direct To Comic Book Shops" books, because they had outstanding sales, an older reader-base (oddly, teen books had more mature, older fans), and newsstand sales were becoming a smaller and smaller part of their business, so they were looking to get out of it. Now comics has spent 25 years whining about NOT being on newsstands anymore.

But yeah, the Legion went from a top-tier seller in 1982 to being rebooted completely in 1994.

Another funny note: The Bierbaums (the married couple that took over after Giffen left) had nothing but negative stuff to say about Wildfire & Dawnstar, explicitly calling the latter a "Marvel"-style character in that link I posted a couple of days ago. Given how popular they are with almost every Legion fan I talk to, and how little they appear in later stories... I'm suspecting I can guess why the Bierbaums' run didn't even last two years before the book got Rebooted, and why Marvel kicked DC's asses in sales since around 1968 to the 2000s :).

I mentioned the "drawn out of a hat" bit before, in my Preamble to this set:
Giffen's original idea was for these "SW6" clones to actually be the original Legion, who would have to fight the altered, "adult" Legion, with the deceased being chosen randomly by the writer.
But the "Blowing up Earth" thing wasn't part of what I'd read, so that was new information to me when you first posted it. Hilarious, petty and basically Giffen being an ass. He's really very odd- I've read fairly little of his solo work, only finding his stuff the best parts of the first Annihilation event, but nearly everything else- the "BWAAHAHAHAHAHAH!" Justice League, Ambush Bug, and the "Rubber Face" era Legion... he is almost the polar opposite of everything I like about comics.

I mean, the Levitz/Giffen era on the book is rad, but... I hate that kind of humor.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Legion of Substitute Heroes! Thunder! Brainiac 5!)

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Yeah, Giffen apparently makes a decent co-plotter, but when given actual writing duties he just becomes very weird. His sense of humor really isn't my thing either, and it's amazing how he can go from being a part of what is basically the Byrne/Clarmont Legion era to "The Guy Who Did the Most Damage to the Legion Not Named John Byrne". Maybe it says something of how much Paul Levitz was really doing.

So yeah, Giffen basically destroyed the Legion, made the Justice League a joke for years, killed one of my favorite characters THREE TIMES, and his brand of "humor" did real damage to my #1 favorite hero. The best thing that came out of Giffen's League was the Booster/Beetle bromance and J'onn's love of Oreos.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Shock »

Ares wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:26 am I'll admit, I prefered the Brainy who was actually more of a nice person. The SW6 Brainiac was actually this kind of dorky but really sweet guy, and his relationship with Andromeda was very "Mr. Miracle/Big Barda"-esque, where the girl was this tall, Amazonian, passionate powerhouse while the guy is this super skilled genius, but whereas Scott is a showboat and cocky, Brainy is often conflicted, reserved, even a little prudish. I never liked Brainy as the jerk he got turned into.
I think at this point it's kind of a thing that comic writers don't like super smart characters. Are there any that haven't been turned into arrogant jerks?
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

MacynSnow wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:16 am
Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:07 am Given that Kara Zor-El's only other main love interest was Comet the Super-Horse... I'm thinking that Brainy was definitely the better match. I mean, he never cheated on her with Superman's Gal, Lois Lane, or Wonder Woman's ancient foe, Circe.

No. I am not making any of that up.
The thought of Brainy and Supergirl(Kara Zor-El) being together reminds me of Revenge Of The Nerds for just the thought that the Prettiest girl in the clubhouse falls for the nerdest one there.....*sniff*it's beautiful .....
well....after the rape at any rate.


man the Nerds pissed me off several times in that movie ....
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

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HalloweenJack wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:14 pm
MacynSnow wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:16 am
Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:07 am Given that Kara Zor-El's only other main love interest was Comet the Super-Horse... I'm thinking that Brainy was definitely the better match. I mean, he never cheated on her with Superman's Gal, Lois Lane, or Wonder Woman's ancient foe, Circe.

No. I am not making any of that up.
The thought of Brainy and Supergirl(Kara Zor-El) being together reminds me of Revenge Of The Nerds for just the thought that the Prettiest girl in the clubhouse falls for the nerdest one there.....*sniff*it's beautiful .....
well....after the rape at any rate.


man the Nerds pissed me off several times in that movie ....
Yeeeeeeah, you watch that as a nerdy, picked on kid in your mid-teens and you're like "Yeah, way to go nerd! You got with the hot chick!"

And then you watch it as an adult and you're like " . . . . that's . . . that's technically rape. Jesus."

Reminds me of an old Dave Chapel bit where he talks about watching Pepe Le Pew cartoons as a kid and thinking "This guy is really romantic", only when he later watched it with his kids and thought "This guy is stalking and molesting this poor cat!"
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Legion of Substitute Heroes! Thunder! Brainiac 5!)

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Donald P. Bellisario, legendary producer of pretty much everything on television between 1970-1999, once said in response to a fan with very pedantic questions about the way things worked on Quantum Leap replied: “Don’t examine this too closely.”

I find this an acceptable explanation for why Reed Richard’s hasn’t cured cancer, why Lewis gets away with rape by deception, Luke and Leia’s incest subtext, or whether or not Dulcinea actually exists.

Sometimes you just have to not worry about things in a story. Those little incongruous questions of logic that only crop up after you read or watch the work, then spend too much time thinking about it. The first time through, you enjoyed the story and didn’t let these things bug you (or even occur to you). So just try to do that upon the next viewing.

Having said all that, I’m a huge geek and do enjoy coming up with “head canon” to explain away these things. Hey, double standards must be twice as good as regular standards, right?

For the ‘why don’t comic book geniuses cure cancer?’ question, my personal head canon is simple: They Have. It’s just that “cancer” isn’t one disease, it’s thousands of very different, very complex, and very rapidly changing different aliments. So Doctor Genius and Mister Smarty have cured dozens of types of cancer, but whatever type of cancer the writers have decided to give Captain Hero’s father-in-law (for adding pathos in his relationship with Linda McHostage, Intrepid Reporter) just happens to be one of the forms of cancer they haven’t cured.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Legion of Substitute Heroes! Thunder! Brainiac 5!)

Post by MacynSnow »

Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:19 pm Having said all that, I’m a huge geek and do enjoy coming up with “head canon” to explain away these things. Hey, double standards must be twice as good as regular standards, right?

For the ‘why don’t comic book geniuses cure cancer?’ question, my personal head canon is simple: They Have. It’s just that “cancer” isn’t one disease, it’s thousands of very different, very complex, and very rapidly changing different aliments. So Doctor Genius and Mister Smarty have cured dozens of types of cancer, but whatever type of cancer the writers have decided to give Captain Hero’s father-in-law (for adding pathos in his relationship with Linda McHostage, Intrepid Reporter) just happens to be one of the forms of cancer they haven’t cured.
I like your "head cannon" people,you should stat them up.....Hey,that gives me a stupid idea i MUST put into a thread!...... :evil:
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Karate Kid! Projectra! Legion of Substitute Heroes!)

Post by Thorpocalypse »

Batgirl III wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:19 pm Donald P. Bellisario, legendary producer of pretty much everything on television between 1970-1999, once said in response to a fan with very pedantic questions about the way things worked on Quantum Leap replied: “Don’t examine this too closely.”

I find this an acceptable explanation for why Reed Richard’s hasn’t cured cancer, why Lewis gets away with rape by deception, Luke and Leia’s incest subtext, or whether or not Dulcinea actually exists.

Sometimes you just have to not worry about things in a story. Those little incongruous questions of logic that only crop up after you read or watch the work, then spend too much time thinking about it. The first time through, you enjoyed the story and didn’t let these things bug you (or even occur to you). So just try to do that upon the next viewing.
Yep. Pretty much every construct we've created falls apart with too much examination, both real world and fantasy. It's just best not to overthink it.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Legion of Substitute Heroes! Thunder! Brainiac 5!)

Post by Hoid »

I’m of the opinion actual superhumans, with physics-bending and science-defying powers, would pretty radically change the entire course of the entire planet.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Legion of Substitute Heroes! Thunder! Brainiac 5!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

Hot damn it I have to examine some things too closely.

There's always things you can ignore and the like, but Revenge of the Nerds really gets my goat (despite me still liking the movie)

Lewis and Betty is just the icing on the cake. He totally raped her while posing as someone else and is really lucky she liked it.

Yeah, the Alpha Betas were asshats and had the run of the place, and yeah their sister sorority were bitches, but I'm not sure that means "Hey let's put cameras in their sorority house and watch them naked cause hijinks! Hey should Wormser be watching this? Ah hell DELINQUENCY! And hey....let's put Betty's nude body on the bottom of those pie plates we sell at the fair! I'm sure that she'll be totally cool with that once Lewis gives her a few Os"

Those, sure, they bug me....but you know what really bugs me?

Their rampant cheating at the Greek games. Kind of unfair to all the other frats and sororities that weren't assholes to them, but the greater good right?

THE GREATER GOOD!
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