Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling! Cyborg!)

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Spam wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:53 am
Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:25 am It kind of baffles me how insensitive in general a lot of comic writers are to the topic of rape. The Avengers writer decides to write Carol Danvers out of the story, so they have her become magically pregnant out of nowhere, go from normal to full term in less than a day, give birth to a child who rapidly ages into an adult, and then reveal that the child is actually Marcus, a guy from Limbo. Who brought Carol to Limbo, is SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED TO USE TECHNOLOGY TO ALTER HER MIND TO MAKE HER FALL IN LOVE WITH HIM, has sex with aka rapes her, then sends her back to Earth so he can use this convoluted method of becoming his own dad to escape Limbo.

And the Avengers were COOL with this! It's like, did none of the writers and editors stop to think how messed up that was?

Identity Crisis likewise turned standard super-genius supervillain Dr. Light into this weird, leering rapist solely for drama and as a red herring. Sue Dibney was just a chew toy for that story.

But then you get other things, like Thor, Captain Britain and Northstar all being mind controlled by women into having sex with them, and at no time is that treated as rape. It's especially bad with Northstar, who is GAY and has no attraction for women.

In the same vein, Nightwing is never treated with any sympathy by anyone else, nor does anyone treat Mirage like a monster for impersonating Starfire and raping Dick. They basically laugh it off like it was no big thing, and Starfire is basically as mad at Dick as she is with Mirage.

A similar thing happened in a Devin Grayson-penned Nightwing story, where a traumatized Nightwing is begging Tarantula to stop while she forces herself onto him. Devin later said that it wasn't consensual, but she didn't consider it rape . . . which just boggles my mind.

Long story short kids, unless you've got the skill to give it the gravitas it deserves, rape is probably something most writers shouldn't touch. Death and murder are far more permanent crimes, but rape leaves a traumatized, living victim that has to cope with the horrible thing done to them, making it a much more complex issue.
Can't recall the specifics, but didnt Hawkeye end up breaking up with his wife, Mockingbird, because she failed to save the life of the villian who raped her? A villian whose power was coming back from the dead?
It's kind of complicated.

At the time, the Avengers went through a time travel adventure, one part which took them into the Wild West. While there, the Phantom Rider fell in love with Mockingbird, and kidnapped her right when the time machine was about to take the heroes away. The Avengers couldn't return immediately, and the Phantom Rider used a potion to erase Bobbi (Mockingbird)'s identity and make her fall in love with him. And while under that influence, they had sex. Which is to say, he raped her.

The comic never calls it rape outright, but when Mockingbird regains her memory, she's clearly mad as hell. She confronts the Phantom Rider and flat out states that he "violated her in the way only scum like him can violate a woman". So they fight, and during the fight, the Phantom Rider falls off the side of a cliff. He's clinging to the edge and begs Mockingbird to save him. Instead, she just tells him to "go to Hell", and watches as he loses his grip and falls to his death.

Eventually, the heroes are able to come back for her. She decides not to tell Clint about this, and we get a semi-realistic depiction of a rape survivor dealing with her trauma. Only when they return to the present, the Phantom Rider's ghost appears and begins to haunt Mockingbird. See, the Phantom Rider wasn't originally a ghost or a phantom. He was just a guy who used stage magic to appear to be a ghost. So when Mockingbird let him die, he really did die, only to come back as a vengeful ghost. But due to some rules of the supernatural he couldn't start haunting her until after she'd returned and killed him.

So Mockingbird, already dealing with the guilt of killing someone and lying to her husband, the trauma of being raped, and the torture of being messed with by a ghost, decides to confide in some of her Avengers. And despite the Avengers having a very strict "No Kill Rule" to maintain their government sanction, every Avenger present is supportive of her and tells her that Clint will likewise be understanding.

The Phantom Rider sees this happen, and instead appears to Hawkeye and the other Avengers, informing them of what happened. So when Hawkeye and the other Avengers show up, Clint is PISSED because Mockingbird has not only been lying to him, she lied about killing someone. This would be bad enough as an Avengers leader, but he's also her husband, so he feels doubly betrayed. And because Clint and Bobbi have similar temperaments, him being mad at her makes her equally defensive right back. So both of them dig in their heels and get into a yelling match, and both of them are too stubborn to back down.

So the pair separate, but they never actually get divorced, I believe. Englehart claims that he was suppose to get them back together not long after, but he left the book and John Byrne dragged out the drama even longer. Eventually Clint and Bobbi realized they were both being idiots, Clint especially so, and the two made up. Just in time for Bobbi to get killed fighting demons.

But wait, there's more!

See, it turns out that somewhere between Bobbi taking a leave of absence from the Avengers and getting killed, she was replaced with a Skrull. So when she comes back to Earth, her memories are still of Clint who refused to take her side as if it happened last week. And despite Clint trying to explain that he realizes he was wrong, Bobbi files for divorce, leaving them both single.

But wait, IT. GETS. EVEN. DUMBER!

Chelsea Cain got to write her own Mockingbird series. It was terrible, with Cain basically completely creating a new character from scratch and being one of the forerunners for the issues Marvel has had in recent years. She was the one with the infamous "Ask me about my feminist agenda" shirt, right as the book was canceled. She also recently had her Vision mini-series canceled by Marvel because, shockingly, it took her over two years to produce four issues worth of content for the series, and it wasn't in line with what Marvel wanted. When Marvel asked her to respect their decision and not make a fuss about it, she immediately went to Twitter and blasted:
"Marvel asked me to keep this 'clean and quiet', because apparently they've never met me. HI GUYS! I'M THE ONE WHO'S THE PAIN IN THE ASS. REMEMBER ME NOW?"
Truly, the soul of professionalism.

In any case, Chelsea Cain decided to revisit the the Mockingbird / Phantom Rider incident. Cain felt that Mockingbird being raped "took away her agency", despite the fact that she got revenge on her abuser and stood by her decision even in the face of what it might cost her, and realistic dealt with the repercussions of such an event.

Instead, Cain decided that Mockingbird had WILLINGLY stayed with the Phantom Rider, and WILLING slept with him. She cheated on her husband because "Clint could never control me", but when she decided she wanted to return home, the Phantom Rider wanted her to stay. They had a fight, and she killed him. So again, instead of avenging herself on her rapist, she killed a guy who at best was somewhat possessive of her, and at worst felt like she had betrayed him and used him, but wanted her to stay so they could work things out.

In the present, Bobbi shows no remorse over killing the Phantom Rider, because "He's a ghost, how could I have killed him", ignoring that the only way for him to have become a ghost was because she killed him. And Clint? Apparently Clint invented the idea of her being raped because that was easier to handle than the idea of her cheating on him, and he divorced her.

And CLINT is the one portrayed as being in the wrong here, refusing to accept Bobbi's decisions, when this whole story turns Bobbi into a monster who cheated on her husband and then murdered her lover because he felt justly pissed that she'd just leave him when she was done with him.

This might surprise you based on that wall of text, but I'm not a fan of the retcon.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am Sometimes it feels like DC only acquired the rights to the Marvel Family solely so that they could exercise some decades long, slow, revenge scheme against them for daring to outsell Superman in the 40s and 50s.
Yeah, sometimes. But no. DC acquired the rights because in the early-to-mid 1970s classic Flash artist Carmine Infantino was DC's top banana. And Carmine was old enough to remember the Captain, and young enough that he actually read the Captain before he got into the business in the late 1940s. Carmine liked the Captain. And for the first dozen years after DC started licensing the rights, well after Carmine stopped being publisher) DC actually gave the Captain a decent push. He was in multiple Mego Toy lines. He got two Saturday morning cartoon shows, one live action and one animated. They kept his book, Shazam, going as long as they could, and then moved him over into the "Dollar Comic" version of World's Finest.

It was actually only AFTER DC bought the rights to the character did things really begin to go haywire. I don't know if that's because they didn't have Fawcett looking over their shoulder, or because Carmine was pretty much retired, or just the general ineptitude that was creeping in during the Dark Age of comics . But they lost sight of the basic idea: Billy Batson is just a good kid, who says a magic word to become a super hero and have fantastic adventures. (As opposed to Freddy, who is a good kid, but with more pathos and down-to-earth perspective, who says a magic phrase to become a super hero and have somewhat less fantastic adventures.)

Writers today can't write good kids. Writers think good kids are unrelatable. Billy, Freddy, and Mary... they aren't normal kids. They're kids other children could aspire to be. Because, maybe, just maybe, if we could be as good as a Mary Bromfield or Freddy Freeman, maybe some wizard could grant us powers too.
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

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Ken wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:30 am
Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am Sometimes it feels like DC only acquired the rights to the Marvel Family solely so that they could exercise some decades long, slow, revenge scheme against them for daring to outsell Superman in the 40s and 50s.
Yeah, sometimes. But no. DC acquired the rights because in the early-to-mid 1970s classic Flash artist Carmine Infantino was DC's top banana. And Carmine was old enough to remember the Captain, and young enough that he actually read the Captain before he got into the business in the late 1940s. Carmine liked the Captain. And for the first dozen years after DC started licensing the rights, well after Carmine stopped being publisher) DC actually gave the Captain a decent push. He was in multiple Mego Toy lines. He got two Saturday morning cartoon shows, one live action and one animated. They kept his book, Shazam, going as long as they could, and then moved him over into the "Dollar Comic" version of World's Finest.
True, and the early 80s was a time when DC was struggling, before Crisis on Infinite Earths helped turn things around financially. Cap had a Shazam series for a good length of time, and the Don Newton run during World's Finest is overall my favorite era of the character. He also appeared in Roy Thomas All-Star Squadron fairly frequently, and had regular guest appearances with Superman, and was consistently shown to be Clark's equal. He had his own MEGO and Super Power action figure, the two Shazam series by Filmation, and rumor has it he was suppose to be in the Super Friends cartoon, but the Filmation deal messed that up.
It was actually only AFTER DC bought the rights to the character did things really begin to go haywire. I don't know if that's because they didn't have Fawcett looking over their shoulder, or because Carmine was pretty much retired, or just the general ineptitude that was creeping in during the Dark Age of comics .
You could see that DC didn't really didn't know what to do with Captain Marvel immediately following Crisis. His initial appearance in Legends was actually pretty decent, as he was singled out by Darkseid as a dangerous opponent that needed to be dealt with first, and he shown to be powerful and wise. They used Legends to set up both a mini-series to re-introduce Cap, and his membership in the Justice League.

Unfortunately, those two series could not have been more different. The Roy Thomas "Shazam: A New Beginning" re-introduced the character to the DC, but had a dark story and even darker art that clashed with what made Cap best. On the other end of the spectrum, the Justice League series that would eventually become Justice League International took all of the dignity, power and intelligence out of Cap, making him into a powerful milksop who was walked over by everyone. I blame Justice League largely for the idea of Cap being portrayed as a "golly gee willikers!" type idiot that several writers seem to think he was.

After that he got token appearances in War of the Gods and Eclipso: The Darkness Within, while also appearing in the Superman event Panic in the Sky. What's sad is that Roger Stern showed an interest in writing Captain Marvel, while Karl Kessel and Tom Grummet would later team up to inject a lot of retro-fun into a Superboy series, and either Stern or Kessel would have been great writers for Cap in my opinion.

Instead we got the Power of Shazam series, and while it wasn't bad and did a lot to introduce the Shazam mythos into the DCU, it was overall fairly lackluster as a series. It just wasn't fun enough to manage its core concept.

To me, the big change happened when Joe Kelly got to write the JLA at the same time Geoff Johns' JSA run was nearing its 50th issue. Both writers apparently wanted to use Captain Marvel for their teams. Joe Kelly had written a decent Captain Marvel story, and he sounded like he was genuinely interested in showing the differences between Cap and Superman on a team, as well as showing the Wisdom of Solomon as being capable of surprising tactical planning. But Geoff Johns was the popular guy at DC due to his gangbuster JSA series, so he won and got to use Cap. And did very little with him, save to push Black Adam and Stargirl's characterization.

After that Dan DiDio stepped in, we got Infinite Crisis and everything went down hill after that. Dan actually stated that it was too soon after Cap's last failed series to try a new series with the classic character. This from the guys who keep putting out Aquaman and Hawkman books after they get canceled or re-started.

The only place I've had any decent Captain Marvel reading was outside of the mainstream DCU. Alex Ross JUSTICE! series, Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam, Convergence: Shazam, Thunderworld, Scooby-Doo meets the Marvel Family, etc.
But they lost sight of the basic idea: Billy Batson is just a good kid, who says a magic word to become a super hero and have fantastic adventures. (As opposed to Freddy, who is a good kid, but with more pathos and down-to-earth perspective, who says a magic phrase to become a super hero and have somewhat less fantastic adventures.)

Writers today can't write good kids. Writers think good kids are unrelatable. Billy, Freddy, and Mary... they aren't normal kids. They're kids other children could aspire to be. Because, maybe, just maybe, if we could be as good as a Mary Bromfield or Freddy Freeman, maybe some wizard could grant us powers too.
Indeed. The whole idea is that Billy Batson is the hero, first and foremost. The only thing the power does is give him the means to put his noble ideals into practical use. If everyone wrote Billy from the perspective of him being, say, Tim Drake or Peter Parker at his core, then there'd be no problem with Cap when he's powered up.

You use to have kids in fiction who could be role-models, but popular media doesn't want us to believe that good kids exist anymore.

To which I say: meet Kesz Valdez, winner of the 2012 International Children's Peace Prize

A kid who was abused as a child. Had to run away from home from an abusive father who used him as a means to get drugs and alcohol. He was badly burned in a fire while scrounging an area for food. He had never celebrated his birthday until after he got away from that abusive home.

On his seventh birthday, he decided to spend it giving toys, food and other essentials to other homeless kids. He began spend his time helping homeless children, whether it's helping give them gifts, trying to get them supplies, and fighting for their rights, making their plight known to the world. He was 13 years old at the time of that video.

If our "realistic" world can have a kid like Kesz in it, we damn well can have a classic Billy Batson, friendly, empathic, funny, brave, resourceful, clever, perceptive and angst free. Because sometimes the best role model for a kid is another kid.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Damage

Post by Jabroniville »

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DAMAGE (Grant Emerson)
Created By:
Tom Joyner & Bill Marimon
First Appearance: Damage #1 (April 1994)
Role: Angry Guy, Powerhouse
Group Affiliations: The Titans, The Freedom Fighters, The Justice Society of America
PL 12 (112)
STRENGTH
2/6 STAMINA 7 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Deception 2 (+2)
Expertise (Survival) 2 (+2)
Intimidation 8 (+8)
Perception 2 (+2)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"Damage Energy"
Damage 12 (Feats: Triggered- Being Attacked, Dynamic) (Extras: Area- 60ft. Burst, Penetrating 6) (Flaws: Fades) (Drawbacks: Full Power -1) (42) -- [44]
  • Dynamic AE: Enhanced Strength 4 & Strength-Damage +4 (Feats: Dynamic) (Extras: Penetrating 8) (21)
  • Dynamic AE: Leaping 6 (500 feet) (Feats: Dynamic) (7)
Features 1: Can Spend a Hero Point to Double Area on Burst (120 feet) [1]
Protection 2 [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Enhanced Power +8 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +9, Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Scarred)- Damage was horribly scarred by Professor Zoom when The Secret Society attacked and massacred The Freedom Fighters. He wears a mask out of shame, and is highly disgusted by his appearance. When Gog changes him into a hottie, he immediately gets a big head and acts like a douche.
Reputation (Destructive Hero)- Damage's powers are highly-dangerous and often cause damage to the general area and teammates alike. He once destroyed a large portion of downtown Atlanta, and became a fugitive beacuse of it. Even as a JSA member, he was not allowed in the state of Georgia.
Relationship (Judomaster)- Damage got a crush on his Japanese teammate, and they hooked up despite a language barrier (and his ruined face).
Responsibility (Out of Control Powers)- Damage can often put "too much" into his attacks, and accidentally blow up a much larger area than he wanted to- since he spends most of his time on super-teams, this is a problem.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 14--7 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 47 / Defenses: 10 (112)

-Damage has got to have one of the weirdest places in all of DC canon by this point. He just doesn't FIT IN anywhere; the guy's the stolen son of Al (The Atom I) Pratt, infused with the genes of every hero ever just about, and raised by evil corporate people. Damage debuted in his own series, which soon failed- the early '90s was NOT the time to debut a complete unknown in his own book- usually, characters have to cameo, are a sidekick, or draw some popularity from somewhere. Damage spent the early part of his heroic career as a Titan, teaming up with the Arsenal-led squad that quickly failed. He was forced on writer Devin Grayson's Titans run (ie. she was ordered to use him by interfering Editors- a Titans Trademark), where she felt she couldn't get a good hold on the character until she found out that he'd been abused by his adoptive parents (she has something similar in her own backstory). Alas, this was also the moment he quit the Titans. He never really did ANYTHING on the squad- just being a backgrounder in a fairly large team.

-He reappeared with The Freedom Fighters, being completely decimated by Professor Zoom and thrown into a smokestack at the beginning of Infinite Crisis. With a ruined face, he became incredibly bitter and changed his character completely, necessitating the Justice Society recruiting him. Given an awesome new costume (one originally meant for Atom Smasher, given the preview art of the Johns/Eaglesham/Ross JSA series), he was a gigantic, bitter ass, acting like a '90s Anti-Hero and insulting everyone around him. Openly disrespectful, he ended up making time with the new Judomaster despite a language barrier, and finally went back to the good side after getting what he thought he wanted from the Cosmic Genie known as Gog. He ended up in the JSA All-Stars series (a spin-off of the successful JSA book, which happened way too late since Johns had left by that point, and the new books weren't so hot), but was chosen as one of the random victims of Blackest Night, having his heart torn out.

-Of course, this was basically forced the All-Stars writer Matt Sturges, who said "that's just one of those things that happens"- it even created a continuity error between issues because it was so sudden! And so Damage, once given a solo push of his very own, was written out of the DC Universe.

-A new version of Damage debuted in 2018 as part of DC's "New Age of Heroes", named Ethan "Elvis" Avery Jr. He's basically a Hulk knock-off doomed to turn into a rampaging brute for one hour per day.

-Wow, talk about not costing the points the build would expect. Problem with Grant is that he's got very little true characterization in spite of it all, leaving him with very few skills (he spent some time with Arsenal's tribe, so I figured he'd have some Survival skills, but that's it) and feats, it having been established that he's just not that good a hero yet. But then he's got this monstrously damaging power, sometimes getting a little bit out of hand by the writers (destroying Atlanta? Restarting the Universe?), but lacks control over it, thus he's got a +12 Damage Area Effect. Plus he's got a 1-point Drawback because he can't lower its power.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling! Cyborg!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Now how'd I know that today was going to be good for long essays from posters? We even got a barely-on-topic one about a Marvel character, because if anything is iconic to my build thread, it's a related question about a relevant topic that turns into a massive rant from Ares :).
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am
This will forever strike me as just incredibly odd. It's just weird how some writers will just decide certain things about a character without giving it much rational thought. Gail Simone did something similar a long time ago on another board, where she chimed in about the relative powerlevels of Superman, Wonder Woman, Black Adam and Captain Marvel. Basically, according to Gail, Superman was a 10 in overall power, and ditto for Black Adam, while Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel were both 9s. However, Supes, Adam and Cap were all 7s or 8s in terms of fighting skill, while Diana was Diana was a 10. So she effectively made Cap less effective than Clark, Diana and Adam, with the reasoning being "that's just what my gut tells me", and she felt it made Cap "braver" because he had to fight against people he was outmatched by. I actually listed the characters histories and previous encounters to show that really didn't line up, and her response is basically, "Wow, it's so cool! I didn't know any of that! Doesn't change my mind tho".

The idea that the Marvels are any sillier than any heroes in DC or Marvel Comics is just weird. This is a setting with talking apes, the Green Lantern Corps. with a chipmunk member, Mr. Myxzptlk, Ambush Bug, Lobo, Batmite, Krypto, Comet the Super Horse, Robin's tiny shorts, G'nort, and let us not forget Dan's own creation, Booster Gold. Honestly, you'd think Dan would have a little more sympathy for how a creation can be twisted into a joke by mishandling and perception. Keith Giffen turned Blue Beetle and Booster Gold into jokes that they still haven't completely overcome.
Well, they DEFINITELY don't fit into the Marvel Comics of any time pre-2010 or so (whenever they started getting WAY too self-indulgent with the silly stuff). The talking mind-controlling worm, the tiger, the Lieutenants... this stuff fits into the DC Universe just fine, but you can't do that with Marvel so much. I think it was Mark Waid who said that "you can tell a story where the Justice League turn into apes. You can't do that with the Avengers".

But finding the Marvel Family too "weird" or "silly" for the DC Universe, which has an actual place named GORILLA CITY, seems arbitrary and strange. I mean... "they don't fit because we already have too many Flying Bricks with similar power-sets" would be fair. But I don't think any writer has ever said that.

But yes, the perception of Gail Simone and other writers is VERY common. I think it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy- The Marvel Family don't "fit in" and fail to have the same power levels of Superman & Wonder Woman... because every creator SAYS they don't, and so the NEXT creators go "Oh, well, they don't."

I think Billy will never get a fair shake in a world with Superman in it, to be honest.
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:07 am
Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am
This will forever strike me as just incredibly odd. It's just weird how some writers will just decide certain things about a character without giving it much rational thought. Gail Simone did something similar a long time ago on another board, where she chimed in about the relative powerlevels of Superman, Wonder Woman, Black Adam and Captain Marvel. Basically, according to Gail, Superman was a 10 in overall power, and ditto for Black Adam, while Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel were both 9s. However, Supes, Adam and Cap were all 7s or 8s in terms of fighting skill, while Diana was Diana was a 10. So she effectively made Cap less effective than Clark, Diana and Adam, with the reasoning being "that's just what my gut tells me", and she felt it made Cap "braver" because he had to fight against people he was outmatched by. I actually listed the characters histories and previous encounters to show that really didn't line up, and her response is basically, "Wow, it's so cool! I didn't know any of that! Doesn't change my mind tho".

The idea that the Marvels are any sillier than any heroes in DC or Marvel Comics is just weird. This is a setting with talking apes, the Green Lantern Corps. with a chipmunk member, Mr. Myxzptlk, Ambush Bug, Lobo, Batmite, Krypto, Comet the Super Horse, Robin's tiny shorts, G'nort, and let us not forget Dan's own creation, Booster Gold. Honestly, you'd think Dan would have a little more sympathy for how a creation can be twisted into a joke by mishandling and perception. Keith Giffen turned Blue Beetle and Booster Gold into jokes that they still haven't completely overcome.
Well, they DEFINITELY don't fit into the Marvel Comics of any time pre-2010 or so (whenever they started getting WAY too self-indulgent with the silly stuff). The talking mind-controlling worm, the tiger, the Lieutenants... this stuff fits into the DC Universe just fine, but you can't do that with Marvel so much. I think it was Mark Waid who said that "you can tell a story where the Justice League turn into apes. You can't do that with the Avengers".
I don't know if it'd be hard for the Marvel's to fit into Marvel Comics either, really. Even the elements that seem to silly on the surface fit in with Marvel to some extent.

Mr. Tawney? Really not any different than the various beast people the High Evolutionary created, or Rocket Raccoon even. I mean, for a while Dr. Strange had a minotaur as an apprentice and Quicksilver's supporting cast was the Knights of Wundagor. Heck, the Beast spent a good chunk of time looking and acting like Mr. Tawney. And don't forget the constant Agents of Atlas push with Gorilla Man.

The Lt. Marvels? Them I'll grant you, but there's a reason they made only a handful of Golden Age appearances, one Bronze Age appearance, and nothing else. Even the silliest Fawcett and DC stuff didn't use these guys.

Mr. Mind? Marvel's no stranger to weird aliens or deformed super genius. MODOK, Arnim Zola, Dr. Sun, the Starjammers medic, etc. And don't forget, Marvel was bringing back guys like Groot and Rocket Raccoon during the Guardians run set during Annihilation, same time they were doing Civil War.

Honestly, the only thing that makes the Marvel Family stuff silly is people assuming that it must be silly. A lot of the trappings of their material is really no less silly than other comics stuff. Master Man is basically Marvel's version of Captain Nazi. Ultron is Mr. Atom with a more distinct head design. Current Namor basically is Black Adam. And least we forget, the smartest hero in Marvel is named Mr. Fantastic.

I get the feeling that if the Marvel Family had been transplanted to Marvel Comics, the writers just would have looked at the material not treated it as silly. Mr. Mind being a psychic alien worm who is an expert geneticist and scientist would have touched on the idea that Mr. Mind can be scary. Imagine a lab Mr. Mind is running using homeless people that he psychically controls simultaneously to perform his experiments and run his equipment, as well as use them as test subjects in his experiments. Because as silly as he looks, Mr. Mind tried to murder Billy Batson regularly, and even Adolf Hitler was subservient to his will.

As long as Marvel is still using characters like the Mole Man and Fing Fan Foom, I think there'd be room for the Marvel Family there.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
- Captain Marvel SHAZAM! : Power of Hope (2000)

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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Bladewind »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:30 pm As long as Marvel is still using characters like the Mole Man and Fing Fan Foom, I think there'd be room for the Marvel Family there.
And, they could, y'know, actually use their names... :lol:
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Ken »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:30 pmHonestly, the only thing that makes the Marvel Family stuff silly is people assuming that it must be silly. A lot of the trappings of their material is really no less silly than other comics stuff. Master Man is basically Marvel's version of Captain Nazi. Ultron is Mr. Atom with a more distinct head design. Current Namor basically is Black Adam. And least we forget, the smartest hero in Marvel is named Mr. Fantastic.
This. Exactly this.

People assume, without knowing any better. And, as I stated before, the Marvels didn't have the same tone. Billy's stories and Freddy's stories don't read like each other's stories. And Mary's didn't read like either. Each of the three was aimed at a slightly different audience. And the Marvel family stories didn't read like any of the other three. Any more than a Justice League story reads like a Superman story. And we all know Batman fits into Superman's world a lot better than Batman fits into Superman's.

And, here's a something the first Lieutenant Marvels story. It may not be the most serious of stories, but read it through until the end. How silly is it, really?
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Jabroniville
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:30 pm I don't know if it'd be hard for the Marvel's to fit into Marvel Comics either, really. Even the elements that seem to silly on the surface fit in with Marvel to some extent.

Mr. Tawney? Really not any different than the various beast people the High Evolutionary created, or Rocket Raccoon even. I mean, for a while Dr. Strange had a minotaur as an apprentice and Quicksilver's supporting cast was the Knights of Wundagor. Heck, the Beast spent a good chunk of time looking and acting like Mr. Tawney. And don't forget the constant Agents of Atlas push with Gorilla Man.
Tawney is a big, bipedal tiger that wears a green suit and is a stuffed animal brought to life, is he not? That's a LOT different from most of those characters. Hell, the original version is apparently just a tiger from India that happens to walk upright and talks like a normal dude.

Rocket is a much more cynical character, told in that disaffected 1970s style of "look at this f*ckin' thing"- now, if Tawny was set up like THAT, then he'd fit.

The New Men? Yeah, but they're horrible characters and goofy-looking villains. But they're basically Named Mooks, not recurring sidekicks or even regular baddies- most of their modern incarnations are at least designed to look somewhat cool and bad-ass. And just being an "Animal Person" isn't inherently silly- it's the whole "plaid-suit-wearing tiger walking around and being the hero's buddy" thing. Never mind his NAME. And again, as I said, Marvel's gotten WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY sillier and more self-indulgent in the modern era. You could throw Tawny into modern-day Marvel and nobody'd bat an eye.

It fits DC, especially with all the ape-related stuff and what-not. But I can't see Marvel ever playing that remotely straight, except with the way they've gone in recent years.

Though honestly, even the Marvels THEMSELVES don't really fit into the Marvel Universe. Unless you count their modern incarnations. Their whole "moral upstanding paragons of perfection" thing is WAY more "DC"- Marvel's heroes are notably nuts. Even Captain America, their closest comparison, is depicted with far more of a temper (in the '60s & '70s, he was downright mercurial; in modern days, he'll actually kill bad guys).

Conceptually and in practice, both comic universes were VERY different (nowadays there's way more overlap). I see that as a strength; each has certain things to offer. But it means that many characters wouldn't fit nearly as well into the other universe- the discrimination-heavy X-Men, scrappy Wolverine, grim Punisher and others are poor fits for the DCU, for example.
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:09 pm
Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:30 pm I don't know if it'd be hard for the Marvel's to fit into Marvel Comics either, really. Even the elements that seem to silly on the surface fit in with Marvel to some extent.

Mr. Tawney? Really not any different than the various beast people the High Evolutionary created, or Rocket Raccoon even. I mean, for a while Dr. Strange had a minotaur as an apprentice and Quicksilver's supporting cast was the Knights of Wundagor. Heck, the Beast spent a good chunk of time looking and acting like Mr. Tawney. And don't forget the constant Agents of Atlas push with Gorilla Man.
Tawney is a big, bipedal tiger that wears a green suit and is a stuffed animal brought to life, is he not? That's a LOT different from most of those characters. Hell, the original version is apparently just a tiger from India that happens to walk upright and talks like a normal dude.
Post-Crisis he started out as a pooka, a type of supernatural creature tasked to act as a kind of guardian for Mary, being able to briefly manifest as an anthropomorphic tiger from time to time. Shazam eventually used magic to make his tiger form permanent.

The animated short Superman/Shazam: The Return of Black Adam made Tawny into a kind of mystical animal spirit that could take on multiple forms, and was designed to keep an eye on Billy throughout his childhood, testing him and the like.

Pre-Crisis, Tawny was the result of an experiment by a scientist who had developed a formula that 'evolved' whomever took it. It turned Tawny into an anthropomorphic tiger with human intelligence, but if used on a human it would turn them into hyper-intelligent psychics, though the only guy to ever use it also went insane with power and had to be returned to normal.

So on the one side he's either a supernatural creature that looks like a half-man, half-tiger, or he's a tiger genetically uplifted to have human intelligence and sentience.

And depending on the artist, he can look frickin cool:

Image

I hate Trials of Shazam, but the art could be nice in spots.
Rocket is a much more cynical character, told in that disaffected 1970s style of "look at this f*ckin' thing"- now, if Tawny was set up like THAT, then he'd fit.

The New Men? Yeah, but they're horrible characters and goofy-looking villains. But they're basically Named Mooks, not recurring sidekicks or even regular baddies- most of their modern incarnations are at least designed to look somewhat cool and bad-ass. And just being an "Animal Person" isn't inherently silly- it's the whole "plaid-suit-wearing tiger walking around and being the hero's buddy" thing. Never mind his NAME. And again, as I said, Marvel's gotten WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY sillier and more self-indulgent in the modern era. You could throw Tawny into modern-day Marvel and nobody'd bat an eye.

It fits DC, especially with all the ape-related stuff and what-not. But I can't see Marvel ever playing that remotely straight, except with the way they've gone in recent years.
Sure, but even more the modern stupidity of stuff like Squirrel Girl and Gwenpool, Tawny could have worked. He basically would have been the same as Ben Grimm or the Beast walking around town. A lot of people of Marvel New York are use to a lot of weirdness, and a talking tiger in a suit and tie and acting like Jarvis would have been something that could have worked out. Marvel would have milked it a bit for their usual discrimination angle, Tawny not fitting in at first, people needing Captain Marvel to constantly vouch for Tawny, much as the Thing frequently scared people. But then something would happen where Tawny would help people, the locals would get to know him, he'd become a local celebrity and then he's just a dude who happens to look like a tiger the same way Ben is just a dude who looks like a walking rock pile.
Though honestly, even the Marvels THEMSELVES don't really fit into the Marvel Universe. Unless you count their modern incarnations. Their whole "moral upstanding paragons of perfection" thing is WAY more "DC"- Marvel's heroes are notably nuts. Even Captain America, their closest comparison, is depicted with far more of a temper (in the '60s & '70s, he was downright mercurial; in modern days, he'll actually kill bad guys).
Again, I don't know. Just having Captain America there means there's room for characters with a paragon like attitude. The Silver Surfer is also occasionally treated a pure, noble soul in the vein of Steve (making it kind of sad the two never really interact much). Thor dabbles in being that kind of paragon, but frequently has more anger issues and the occasional bit of pride that makes him fall short. Basically, Thor is often that kind of noble paragon until you piss him off, then all bets are similarly off.

I've frequently described Billy as being pre-serum Steve Rogers with a Peter Parker sense of humor. And a core element of what would make Billy fit in with Marvel is that he is relateable. Not in the sense that everyone can see themselves as Billy, because really, none of us can see ourselves as Peter Parker either. Peter Parker is a world-class super genius with very strong moral convictions undermined by semi-regular self-doubt, brooding, guilt and selfishness. What makes him relateable is that he goes through a lot of the same things we do. He's a science and pop culture geek who has difficulties with his job, has issues with family, friends, money, etc. He has a normal life that we can relate to that is interrupted by superhero shenanigans.

Billy Batson being a normal kid when not as Captain Marvel likewise has all of the same problems and issues a normal person while being an idealized teenager. He has his own place, his own job, friends, loved ones, but he also has responsibilities he needs to tend to, problems, etc. He deals with the same normal crap we do and has the same kind of loves and losses. That's what makes him relateable.

Now, would Marvel tell different stories with Billy than Fawcett or DC did? Almost certainly, but as you've mentioned, even Marvel will change wildly from what kind of stories are told. Early Marvel was way more Pulp Sci-Fi while the 70s were more Superhero Soap-Opera. So I imagine Billy's stories would be different and focus on different aspects of the character. But as for changing the character's core personality, I'm not sure they'd really need to do much of that. You take the Captain Marvel from JUSTICE! or Superman/Shazam: The Return of Black Adam and he'd basically fit in with no changes needed.
Conceptually and in practice, both comic universes were VERY different (nowadays there's way more overlap). I see that as a strength; each has certain things to offer. But it means that many characters wouldn't fit nearly as well into the other universe- the discrimination-heavy X-Men, scrappy Wolverine, grim Punisher and others are poor fits for the DCU, for example.
Again, I don't know. I've generally felt that the differences between Marvel and DC were largely superficial at best. Both companies had their paragons, their everymen, the angsty bad boys, their more violent types, etc. During the 60s the difference was much more clean cut, as DC's characters tended to all be interchangable paragons while Marvel allowed their characters to be flawed, but even by the 70s that had changed quite a bit. DC had characters that tried to become more human while Marvel took on things in a larger scope. By the 80s to me, the differences between the company was really more of a matter of which characters you liked more than differences in the setting.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling! Cyborg!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:34 am Now how'd I know that today was going to be good for long essays from posters? We even got a barely-on-topic one about a Marvel character, because if anything is iconic to my build thread, it's a related question about a relevant topic that turns into a massive rant from Ares :).
A call went out. A call that begged for knowledge of a bit of comics minutia that I could supply. And I could not deny it. :mrgreen:
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by BriarThrone »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:30 am This will forever strike me as just incredibly odd. It's just weird how some writers will just decide certain things about a character without giving it much rational thought. Gail Simone did something similar a long time ago on another board, where she chimed in about the relative powerlevels of Superman, Wonder Woman, Black Adam and Captain Marvel. Basically, according to Gail, Superman was a 10 in overall power, and ditto for Black Adam, while Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel were both 9s. However, Supes, Adam and Cap were all 7s or 8s in terms of fighting skill, while Diana was Diana was a 10. So she effectively made Cap less effective than Clark, Diana and Adam, with the reasoning being "that's just what my gut tells me", and she felt it made Cap "braver" because he had to fight against people he was outmatched by. I actually listed the characters histories and previous encounters to show that really didn't line up, and her response is basically, "Wow, it's so cool! I didn't know any of that! Doesn't change my mind tho".
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Re: Captain Marvel, Jr.

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Ares wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:06 pm Again, I don't know. I've generally felt that the differences between Marvel and DC were largely superficial at best. Both companies had their paragons, their everymen, the angsty bad boys, their more violent types, etc. During the 60s the difference was much more clean cut, as DC's characters tended to all be interchangable paragons while Marvel allowed their characters to be flawed, but even by the 70s that had changed quite a bit. DC had characters that tried to become more human while Marvel took on things in a larger scope. By the 80s to me, the differences between the company was really more of a matter of which characters you liked more than differences in the setting.
Related to your comment about Mr. Tawney walking down the street, there was a quote from Stan Lee about the difference between Marvel and DC when he started.
Before Marvel started, any superhero might be walking down the street and see a 12-foot-tall monster coming toward him with purple skin and eight arms breathing fire, and the character would have said something like, 'Oh! There's a monster from another world; I better catch him before he destroys the city.' Now, if one of our Marvel characters saw the same monster, I'd like to think Spider-Man would say, 'Who's the nut in the Halloween get-up? I wonder what he's advertising?'
Now, Thor was introduced fighting rock aliens, so I think Stan was embellishing a bit, but there's some truth to it.
Last edited by FuzzyBoots on Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling! Cyborg!)

Post by Ken »

Mr. Tawny was in Billy's stories, not Freddy's.
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