Jab’s Builds! (Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef! Sweetums! Gonzo!)

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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Didn't help that he got one Iron Fist guy, some Daredevil guys, and more. But considering how bad most Rogues Galleries are for guys created after 1970, they did a pretty amazing job.
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Wolverine, Part Two

Post by Jabroniville »

The Wolverine Backlash:
-Curiously, the Wolverine Backlash began as his book was still super-popular. The character was so omnipresent, and so copied, that fans forgot what made the original such a good character, and began trashing him. But of course... sales persisted. As much as fans cried about Wolverine Saturation, as he would by the 2000s be upgraded to being in EVERY X-Men book (as the book had spread out the cast among 2-3 titles), and then join THE AVENGERS of all teams, books featuring him would sell. Editors declared "Anyone who doesn't use Wolverine is an idiot". And most of this would be disregarded when Hugh Jackman, despite being far too tall and handsome, got the role in what would become the X-Men film franchise, becoming a HUGE cultural icon and known to even more people. Jackman would be successful to the point where it would overshadow all his other work (he started out as a song & dance Broadway performer), and become so iconic that now I can't even imagine another actor playing the character.

Wolverine's Origin:
-Wolverine would of course continue to be popular. He'd even gain a real Origin story- he grew up in 1880s Alberta, a sickly child of a wealthy family, and the illegitimate son of the alcoholic groundskeeper, Thomas Logan. When Logan murders James Howlett's family, the boy reveals bone claws from his wrists, slaying his birth father and going on the run with his childhood friend, Rose. Later, he would kill her accidentally, going on the run. Various bits of backstory would have him make enemies with Victor Creed (Sabretooth), join the Blackfoot Tribe (and gain a lover in Silver Fox, soon losing her to Sabretooth), joining the Canadian military during World War I, and then moving to Japan, where his love affair with Japanese culture starts (this is where his son, Daken, came from). Naturally, most of this was unknown to him when he debuted in comics.

-Logan also fights in World War II, then joins a military squad with Creed and Maverick. Eventually, he is abducted by Weapon X and has Adamantium bonded to his skeleton, joining Department H's operations (bringing him into contact with the Hudson family and Alpha Flight). It was around this point that he joined the X-Men.

Wolverine in the 2000s:
-Controversially joining the Avengers in Bendis's run, Wolverine eventually leaves the team, and takes part in various unpopular X-Men stories, as the book had FINALLY lost enough popularity that The Avengers was able to top it (something that hadn't happened since the 1970s). He and Cyclops would finally have a REAL falling-out in Schism, Logan forming a new "Jean Grey School For Higher Learning" and act as uncool Principal of a new school for Mutants, while Cyke led a more militaristic branch of rebels. Mark Millar wrote a popular Old Man Logan story, basically a rip-off of The Dark Knight Returns, featuring an elderly Logan as the hero- this would eventually lead to a feature film appearance, and the guy showing up in the mainstream universe after some Parallel Universe Shenanigans in Secret War. The MAIN Wolverine would of course join the ranks of hundreds of Marvel characters who get "Temporary Deaths" in the past decade, dropping out of sight for a few years before returning.

-Wolverine's personality and status has greatly shifted as well, much like many other Marvel characters. Logan started out as a smirking rebel, but developed his "Berserker Fury/Caring Personality" dichotomy later on. He kind of shifted into an "Old Grump" persona, taking a fatherly role to other characters. And by the 2000s, it was LOGAN who was the "Responsible One", becoming Headmaster to his own school, dealing with bratty students, and more- effectively becoming a new Cyclops & Professor X. His more hard-assed, rebellious, murderous days are long, long gone.

Wolverine Through The Years:
-Basically, this is how it breaks down:
1970s: Smirking, rebellious punk. Hates being told what to do. Fights with Cyclops and flirts with Jean.
Late 1970s, Early '80s: Japanophile. Delicate with Mariko. Deep friends with the other X-Men. In love with Jean. Even respects Cyclops.
1980s: Gruff, grumbly old man, slowly losing steps and kind of commiserating about it. 
1990s: Permanent holding pattern (Claremont leaves, and the other writers don't mess with him).
Late 1990s: Loses his Adamantium, becomes more of a "sad loner" outcast.

SO WHY IS WOLVERINE POPULAR?:
-Well, it seems self-evident, but really, it's worth exploring why Wolverine is EASILY the most popular comic book character in history created after the 1960s. Logan gets credit for being one of the FIRST "Bad-Ass Anti-Heroes" in comics. Something that was more common in "Men's Fiction" novels and hardboiled detective stuff, Logan was a hard-drinkin', chain-smokin', rebellious ass-kicker who took steps other heroes wouldn't. This made him a dangerous, threatening RENEGADE, which is of course candy to the largely young male audience reading these books. And while that character type became WAY too common eventually, Logan is Grandfather Clause'd into still being popular because of it.

-Logan is an OUTCAST, too. Which is something that all readers have felt like at some point, but Logan made it COOL. Like he really couldn't "get" people, wanted to be off on his own, and couldn't handle societal conventions. Who HASN'T felt like that? Marvel really hit on something in the 1960s with Ben Grimm, Peter Parker and others, but Logan took that even further- he could barely function in society.

-Wolverine was also DANGEROUS- few heroes, especially in the 1970s, ever looked like they just might kill one of their own teammates if the wrong thing was said. Wolverine nearly stabbed Nightcrawler- HIS FRIEND- when he kissed Mariko under the mistletoe! His agitation towards Cyclops turned violent more than once as well- Cyke even goaded Logan into trying to kill him (which helped him get over his horror at being assaulted by the reality-warping villain Proteus). This made Wolverine even MORE cool to fans- being able to let loose your anger on the world is a dark fantasy of a LOT of people (especially young men), and here was a character who more or less defined his life on that razor's edge between "Controlled Bad-Ass" and "Savage Lunatic". The occasional "Berserker Rage", where he'd just mindlessly hack guys down, made him a very cool, dangerous character.

-But like I said, it's his DEPTH that really matters. "Bad-Asses" are a dime a dozen, but how many of them have brotherly relationships like Logan has with Kurt & Piotr? Or a love affair with delicate women like Mariko? Or a fatherly relationship with Kitty Pryde (later Jubilee)? Turning some of his villains (most notably Sabretooth) into dangerous bad-asses was a big help, too- most of the other Anti-Heroes don't have great foes. Wolverine's "Healing Factor" is also a great plot device, as he can take gory damage that you can't explain away with other heroes.

STUFF WOLVERINE INSPIRED:
-Comics is really, REALLY big on the "Me Too" thing (copycatting, not sexual harrassment). And Wolverine's popularity inspired generations of copycats. Guys With Claws became a thing. Animalistic Heroes, too. Most low-brand X-Men & X-Force rip-offs featured both. He led to a huge influx in "Heroes Who Kill" and Anti-Heroes in general. "Healing Factor" was one of the most common power-sets of the 1990s, with even THE HULK gaining a bigger, better one, regenerating tissue with ease instead of his prior "just gets up after you KO him" status. Mysterious Pasts became a huge cliche as well, with numerous guys swiping that in the '90s- Cable is the most notable one for me, as he was prominent for YEARS without much in the way of backstory.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu May 24, 2018 4:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Batgirl III »

I remember hating Wolverine in the Eighties and Nineties; Part of it was just being a naturally contrarian teen (“Its Popular, So It Sucks” isn’t limited to Pitchfork reading music hipsters) and part of it was that during the “Put Logan in Everything” era of comics, he was frequently being badly written by scribes that just didn’t grok what made him work.

Hugh Jackman’s portrayal of the character in the first X-Men movie was great and it gave me a kick in the cape to go and re-read the Byrne and Claremont stuff. That’s when I think I finally understood the character. He’s not a rebellious idiot punker (“I hate punkers.” —Jab), he’s Clint Eastwood!

That was a revelatory moment for me.

Just like most of Eastwood’s most iconic characters, a well-written Wolverine is cold, gruff, and capable of stunning acts of violence... But not because he’s remorseless, humorless, or because he enjoys killing. He’s cold, because he’s professional. He’s gruff, because he’s introspective. He’s brutally violent, because he’s forced into it. He is the “rough man” that George Orwell had in mind when he wrote that: “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”

Unfortunately, the Dark Age of Comics came along and gave us a thousand badly written Wolverine stories and ten thousand even more badly written Off-Brand Wolverine characters. It soured me on the guy for twenty-odd years.

Hugh Jackman saved the character for me.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Ares »

I'll admit, I'm one of the few people whose favorite X-Man was Cyclops, not Wolverine. And it wasn't even close. At least "classic" Cyclops, not the borderline insane cult leader they've made him into.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Davies »

My favorite Logan moment is from the time he joined the Fantastic Four. He, Spidey and the Hulk are on the street outside the Baxter Building when the Ghost Rider rolls up and rides his magic motorcycle up the side of the building to answer the mysterious summons that's brought them all here. The Hulk promptly leaps after him, and Spidey swings up the same way ...

... and Wolverine, grumbling the whole way, walks inside the building and takes the elevator up to the right floor.

Because who's Wolverine? He's just this guy with claws who's really hard to kill.
Batgirl III wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 1:20 amJust like most of Eastwood’s most iconic characters, a well-written Wolverine is cold, gruff, and capable of stunning acts of violence... But not because he’s remorseless, humorless, or because he enjoys killing. He’s cold, because he’s professional. He’s gruff, because he’s introspective. He’s brutally violent, because he’s forced into it. He is the “rough man” that George Orwell had in mind when he wrote that: “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”
Except Orwell never wrote that. It's a paraphrase of something he did write in Notes on Nationalism, which can be read in full here.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Okay, so the quote is apocryphal... But I think the sentiment certainly applies.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Davies »

"Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf" is (a) more neutral and (b) less creepy.

Forgive me, but this is one of the five points I will not budge on.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Sounds like what my old mentor would call a “distinction without a difference” to me, but you do you. ;)
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by MacynSnow »

Ares wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 1:27 am I'll admit, I'm one of the few people whose favorite X-Man was Cyclops, not Wolverine. And it wasn't even close. At least "classic" Cyclops, not the borderline insane cult leader they've made him into.
He was(up untill recently) one of my favorite X-Men as well.What i love about Scott wasn't the look(though i did like his 'blue team' uniform the best),it was how he was wrote.

Here was this tourtred(?) soul that believed in a cause,despite what it took from him(his son infected with a virus,then taken to the future to save him--the love of his life supposedly becomes reborn as a near Omnipotent Goddess that goes temporarily insane and commits Suicide to prevent it from happening again--the next woman he falls for turns out to be a clone of his last girlfriend with the idea of getting knocked-up and having a "Super Mutant" baby--The man he looked up to like a father turns out to be a manipulative Ashat--His real daddy got high-jacked by aliens and became a Space Pirate).A man who can't shut his Eyebeams off,so he's effectively Blind without specialized Eye equipment.

The only good thing this man got out of his faith in "The Dream" was the training to be one of the best Field Leaders in Marvel Comics today.Mr.Scott Summers could lead a Boy Scout Troop agsinst Kang The Conquer an stand a good chance of winning...
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Batgirl III »

Scott should be written as (and once was written as) a leader second only to Captain America. Possibly his equal. In my reading, Cap has always been a tactical genius who is so inspiring he can be thrust into any situation with any group of people — be they heroes, soldiers, or even everyday civilians — and just instantly take control of the situation and make them work as a team. Cyclops doesn’t have that same sort of instant charisma, but he’s the consummate small-unit strategist. Give him a little time to work with his team, to learn their strengths and weaknesses and he can make them far more than the sum of their parts.

We had a character who was unironically described as the living embodiment of his mentor's dream: protecting the world that fears and hates him. He was a natural leader, a skilled tactician, a brilliant strategist, and a caring mentor, in his own way, to several subsequent younger generations. But ever since Logan went over with the fans, he's been written an ever increasingly amoral, egotistical jackass. And, now he's a mass-murdering terrorist leading his own rogue nation-state and flashing gang signs. Ugh.

My theory that “Marvel doesn’t like superheroes.” was first formed by seeing what they did to Scott.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Ares »

Yeah, Scott to me was essentially the Captain America of the mutant world. In terms of tactical ability, getting his people to perform in stressful situations, and morality, I considered the two of them pretty much equals. What Scott lacked that Steve had in abundance was the easy way in which Steve could connect with people and put them at ease. Avengers: Infinity War had a moment that basically showcased this off perfectly, when Steve walks in on the attack on Vision and Wanda and the relief on Wanda's face is just palpable. Steve has that rare quality that folks like Superman and Optimus Prime have: when they show up, you just know everything is going to be alright. Likewise, Steve just knows how to connect with people, so that even Hawkeye (basically Steve's "Wolverine") admires Steve immensely and will gladly follow him, rather than Logan's constant egging of Scott.

Scott meanwhile is a bit awkward in personal situations, was kind of a shy kid that has problems connecting with people as easily. It takes time for him to form the bonds he did with the X-Men, and that usually required months of extensive training together and slowly earning their respect.

Heh, it's funny how in a thread about to focus on Wolverine that we're talking about Cyclops. I guess part of it is that I tended to look at Logan from the perspective of "If I was the team leader, what would having Wolverine on the team be like" and the answer was "A huge pain in the ass". It definitely didn't help how insane his fanboys got, or how much of a push Logan got over time. His healing factor went from something that would let him eventually recover from anything that didn't outright kill him, to something that would let him regenerate entire limbs within seconds and make him virtually unkillable. Given "insane healing factors" is one of the issues I have with comics, I much prefer the version where it cuts down on Logan's recovery time rather than something that made him impossible to KO or kill.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Ares »

I also thought the bone claws were stupid, given his original powers was just suppose to be a healing factor, with his enhanced physical abilities and senses basically being the result of his healing factor keeping his body running at peak human efficiency, as well as possibly learned skills. Making the claws and senses part of his mutant power, with said power apparently being some kind of "wolf-ish" attributes was just kind of silly.

Granted, not as silly as what his ACTUAL origin was going to be at first, which was that he was a wolf or wolverine that the High Evolutionary turned into a human, making him not technically even a mutant.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

I think my favorite period, for Cyclops and Wolverine was between Manifest Detiny and Second Coming. Scott steps ouf of Xavier’s shadow and starts actually accomplishing things for mutant-kind. He politically out-maneuvers Norman Osborn, then being treated as the greatest threat since Doctor Doom. He actually unifies the mutant people who’ve been factionally infighting since X-Men #1; Magneto actually kneels to him in recognition of what he’s done. He takes that skill set beyond just tactics into strategic leadership.

At the same time, the mutants are under an existential threat he feels can only be dealt with by measures Xavier would not approve. Rather than let Cyclops become a killer, Wolverine and Archangel make X-Force their baby. They take strategic direction from Scott but are truly a black ops team. And when the threat is over, Scott disbands them. “I’m the killer on this team” used to be Wolverine’s refrain, and it felt like this was finally an appropriate use of it.

Leading X-Force also showed what an absolutely crappy tactician Wolverine is. His plans ranged from frontal assault to “get ‘em.” Which works for him, but X-Force only survived it because the team consisted almost entirely of people with healing factors. Most of whom had skills, if not powers, that could be put to far better use.

I am far from a Wolverine fan. To me, superheroes don’t kill. But part of the point of X-Force was that these weren’t heroes, they were soldiers doing those rough things that the rest of us rely on. That redeemed it, and its members, to me.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

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I created a custom Benefit Advantage for Clark and Steve, which I call “It’s Superman!” / “It’s Captain America!” to reflect the instantaneous awe and respect those two men command in a crisis situation.

When Superman flies into a crisis or Cap comes leaping over the parapet, no matter how grim the odds, everyone just feels more hopeful. Hardass, grizzled old NCOs take a moment to chomp their cigars and rally their men to fave down the kaiju. Stressed out beat cops who were hiding behind their smoking squad car discover a new reserve of courage and start fighting back against the alien cyborg-soldiers... But it’s not just about fighting. Captain America can bring rival warlords to the table and get them to agree to cooperate. Superman is recognized as a neutral and fair arbiter by everyone from democratically elected presidents to tin-pot banana republic dictators. Alien civilizations from the opposite end of the galaxy know their reputations and occasionally send envoys asking for help.

Cyclops, on the other hand, doesn’t command that kind of recognition... Except from the people who know him. Within the mutant community (or the broader superhero community) he’s a known figure, but he doesn’t have the broader fame factor.

Or, at least, that’s how I think he should be written.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (The Flame! Charon! A Huge, Throbbing Genis!)

Post by Ken »

I remember my distaste for for Wolverine started in the mid-to-late 1970s. I was 8 or 9. And a kind-of friend of mine started telling me about this new character who could "shoot claws" out of his wrists. The way Andy described it, it sounded like they were launched as projectiles. And they could "cut anything." Even Captain America's shield or Superman.

40+ years on, my distaste hasn't gone away. I'll give Jackman credit for giving a performance that made me feel empathy for Logan. And now, I at least, understand what role he plays in the dynamic of things. But I still don't like him.
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