Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Ken
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

Post by Ken »

KorokoMystia wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:50 am From what I've read, despite the stupid-sounding name and concept, they did have a kinda neat gimmick: The members of the Wildebeest Society would act as if it were a single villain named "Wildebeest", even though there were actually many of them, and each one wore an exosuit that made them look similar to the Baby and gave them enhanced strength and durability.
Yeah, but even that wasn't really a gnu idea. It's the gimmick that was used by Trident in "Who Killed Trident?" (NTT #33, vol. 1) but turned up to 11.

It's not a bad idea. It was clever with Trident, and using it on a larger scale makes sense. It's the selection of animal to base the powersuits' appearance on. That was a gnu idea, but not really the best one. Maybe it was a hint to tell the people that the 'single villain' bit was a bunch of bull.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

Post by Ken »

I thought the design the "Teen Titans" animators gave Red Star was a good way of combining Leonid's classic uniform with a military uniform. Plus the hat just sells the "He's Russian" thing.
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Changeling

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CHANGELING (Garfield "Gar" Logan, aka Beast Boy)
Created by:
Arnold Drake & Bob Brown
First Appearance: The Doom Patrol #99 (Nov. 1965)
Role: Animal Shapeshifter, Team Joker
Group Affiliations: The Doom Patrol, The Teen Titans, Young Justice, The Ravagers, Titans West
PL 10 (175)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 0 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 1 (+5)
Deception 3 (+5)
Diplomacy 4 (+6)
Expertise (Pop Culture) 8 (+8)
Expertise (Acting) 2 (+4)
Perception 4 (+4)
Stealth 2 (+6)

Advantages:
Benefit (Wealth), Daze (Deception), Fast Grab, Ranged Attack, Taunt

Powers:
Shapeshift 11 (Animal Powers) [88]
Morph 3 (Animals) (Flaws: Limited to Green) [12]
Enhanced Fighting 2 (Flaws: Limited to Animal Forms) [2]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Animal Forms +8 (-4 to +12 Damage, DC 11-27)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +8 (+10 Animal Forms, DC 18-20), Toughness +3 (-3 to +12 Animal Forms), Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Motivation (Family)- Gar lost his adopted familiy when The Doom Patrol were killed. Without anyone to turn to, he quickly grew attached to the Teen Titans, and stuck with them for years. He was aimless without them, falling onto the Titans West debacle that went nowhere, before finally finding the Titans & Doom Patrol again.
Relationship (Cyborg)- Gar Logan & Victor Stone have one of comics' most-enduring Bromances. Since Vic takes himself too seriously and is always bitter, and Garfield is a giant pain in the ass, they're a perfect match. Gar is the only Titan able to break through to Vic when he merges with the alien Technis.
Drawbacks (Large Forms)- Taking the forms of large animals (like Elephants & Tyrannosaurs) actually tires out Changeling significantly, so he can't hold these forms for more than a few rounds continuously.
Relationship (Raven)- They kind of hooked up in the relaunch-era team, but Gar got all emo and Raven is always half-nuts, so it never works out.
Relationship (Tara Markov, aka Terra)- Garfield fell head over heels for the sarcastic young girl, and the two bickered and flirted endlessly. Gar went CRAZY when they finally shared that sweet kiss. Which made things all the worse when she was revealed as a psychopathic monster who was planning to kill them all, AND that she'd been banging the 50-something Deathstroke the Terminator on the side. He was beside himself when she was killed, and took MONTHS to get over it, going from the Comic Relief Titan to the Angsty, Sobbing Titan.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 102 / Defenses: 14 (175)

Beast Boy- From the Doom Patrol to the Titans:
-Garfield Logan kind of got introduced to the Titans in a weird way, being a Doom Patrol character at first (gaining his powers after a GREEN MONKEY bit him, and an experimental serum gave him powers), but he quickly fell into two very important roles (and part of what made that original run so great): The Jokester and The Exuberant One. The former allowed a constant stream of sometimes-funny, sometimes-annoying jokes that would actually piss someone off if you kept them up in real life (and since he didn't have to be as likeable as Spidey; being a team-book character, that was actually effective writing). The latter was important because almost everyone else on the team was super-serious and boring a lot of the time (even Cyborg and Starfire were soldier-types sometimes), and it made it that much MORE important when Gar was occasionally forced to grow up. The best bit is he only gave OCCASIONAL hints about his inner being- most of the time he was a joker, but his teammates were among the few to know that he often used it as a mask and a method to not basically fall into the angst of the others- I mean, this IS a kid who lost basically his entire family when the Doom Patrol were wiped out.

-Garfield Logan’s parents were brilliant biologists who saved him from a rare, lethal disease named “Sakutia” by making a serum that transformed him into a green monkey for twenty-four hours. Green monkeys, obviously, being immune to Sakutia. His parents later sued in a boating accident, while he was left with the permanent ability to become any animal he wished. He is victimized multiple times- criminals force him to side in their crimes, while his guardian plots to kill him for his inheritance. The Doom Patrol is alerted to the trouble and saves his life- Elasti-Girl and Steve Dayton soon adopt him, making him part of the team, as “Beast Boy”. However, he is orphaned yet again, when the team is killed at the end of their series.

-The character makes an unexpected return as part of “Titans West”, a jokey sister-team to the main Teen Titans. He joins the cast of a Star Trek rip-off, but it’s quickly sued out of existence. This is a minor bit, but leads to him joining the Wolfman/Pérez team, now as Changeling.

Changeling:
-As Changeling, “Gar” becomes sort of the heart of the team- a smart-ass who keeps things light and a bit more honest. He teases the other members (especially Cyborg), and acts out the lusty admirations of the male fanbase where the girls are concerned, acting more like a naughty little boy than anything. But every once in a while, they pulled back the curtain on this thrice-orphaned kid (his NEW adoptive father, Niles Caulder, went nuts from his mental-power helmet), showing you that he joked because his life was nothing but crushing disappointments. His childlike crush on Tara Markov helped make him seem like the “baby” of the team, too- his cherubic face and big hair aiding the concept.

-The Judas Contract was key to his character growth. The jokey character was a pervert who was nonetheless in love with the girl who turned out to be the devil in disguise, and that revelation followed immediately by her death sent him into a tailspin that forced him to eventually grow up, after letting go of his blind vengeance for The Terminator. There’s a great bit where Gar, still clearly in love and denial over a dead girl, tearfully asks the Terminator “D-did you ever make love to Terra” and is forced to have the VILLAIN admonish his immaturity and naïveté. Gar remained on the team for years, getting over his mistrust of Jericho (a new member, and the Terminator’s son), and connecting with Cyborg on a more mature level (the two were best friends, but mocked each other relentlessly, like brothers do). The Titans has effectively replaced his real family.

-Unfortunately, Gar was one of those guys that didn't "live" past the '90s era, being shunted off the team (to unrealistically trying to start an acting career), never dealt with by the common DCU, and even left off of the Grayson "retro" team that brought the ENTIRE '60s & '80s casts together save him & Raven. This is in spite of being a huge player in the JLA/Titans story, having figured out that Cyborg was responsible for kidnapping all the former Titans, and finally convincing him to give up.

-Poor Gar (now “Beast Boy” again, taking his name from the cartoon) didn't even get any play until they whipped him onto the 2000s "retro" team that Geoff Johns was writing, but a relationship with Raven (A "WTF!?" moment for any older fan) failed to ignite him, and he pretty much just became "Cyborg's Buddy" and didn't get much play with the other new kids. His leadership turned into disaster, with a ton of new kids cycling through the team. Later writers would basically use him as a Whiny Guy character- he’d quit and join a new Doom Patrol book (with a mandatory short run). He returns to the team to help his on-again, off-again girlfriend Raven against her evil half-brothers, and they finally coupled up at the end of continuity.

-In the “New 52”, Gar is now red (associated with Animal Man and his link with “The Red” being the web that connects all animal life on Earth) and on The Ravagers- a more bad-ass team of heroes. He hooks up with a new Terra, but is nearly killed by Deathstroke before being recruited to the new Teen Titans by Raven.

Gar's Powers:
-For the comic relief, Gar was really effective, and spent entire battles in various animal forms (this probably makes him every artist's Least Favourite Titan Ever, as he's horribly generic and boring out of animal form, and requires knowing how to draw EVERY ANIMAL EVER when using his powers). Shapeshift is one of the most easily-broken powers of the game, allowing Changeling here to basically put stats wherever the hell he wants them at will for any situation. As a Rhino, he could dish out PL 10-level Penetrating damage with ease, and as an Insect or Spider, he was basically impossible to hit, and the only member of the team who could easily get out of entrapment or other sticky situations. Or try an Octopus for Extra Limbs and grappling, a Crocodile for causing terror, a T-Rex for when you REALLY want to mess people up, or a Pterosaur for flying your teammates out of danger.

-And if he needs his hands, but a boost in strength, there's a Gorilla form! I gave him "Enhanced Fighting- Animal Forms" because I don't think I EVER saw him fight anyone as a human, thus he's only really effective in his other forms. He also has a Drawback about Large Forms- I guess they wanted a reason why he wasn't just taking huge form all the time and dominating fights (though really, automatic weapons will basically finish off even large animals). For some reason, the Official DCA build gave him Stamina 8, which seems a bit odd for his human form, but DC has a tendency to upgrade or super-size people all of a sudden. I'm not really a fan of "Limited to Animals" as a Flaw for Shapeshift since animals are VERY versatile, and I included a Morph power because Chameleon Boy & other shapeshifters have it.

"T-Rex Powers"
Growth 7 (14)
Impervious Toughness 7 (7)
Strength-Damage +2 (2)
Teeth +3 (Penetrating 7) (10)
Speed 3 (16 mph) (3)
Senses 5 (Low-Light Vision, Acute Scent & Extended Scent 3) (5)
Stamina +1 (2)
Skills 16: Intimidation +13, Perception +3 (8)
Advantages 10: All-Out Attack, Diehard, Improved Critical (Bite) 4, Improved Hold, Power Attack, Startle, Takedown (10)
-- (61 points)

-Since the T-Rex is probably the most expensive type of animal upgrade around, I build the powers he'd gain from the Boost to determine what rank of Shapeshift I'd need.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

Post by Ares »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:59 am George Pérez is officially retired today.
:cry:
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ken wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:59 am George Pérez is officially retired today.
Damn- good for him.

I wonder what’ll happen if I do a Jeph Loeb-centric run of builds, now...
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Kole! Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling!)

Post by Ken »

Beast Boy, prior to being Changeling was weird. He didn't turn into green animals then. He turned into normal coloured animals with a green human-ish face. But since Gar was green, the Doom Patrol made him wear a purple face mask, with a black (or yellow) domino mask over it, presumably to distact people from realizing the purple face mask was a mask....

Marv and George definitely polished up Gar.

Gar's tenure with the classic Titans was brief, but it was there. Teen Titans #6 he appeared in "The Fifth Titan", which is weird because issue #4 is where we saw Speedy join. [Oddly, Green Arrow joined the JLA in Justice League of America #4; then again Captain America joined the Avengers in The Avengers #4.] Anyway, Beast Boy didn't turn up in Teen Titans again until #50 (4th to last issue) as part of Titans West.

I wonder if Space Trek 2022 can be found on the DCU version of Netflix.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Kole! Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling!)

Post by Ares »

Re: Donna Troy
Poory Donna Troy. I think everyone liked the character, but she was definitely one of the folks hit hardest by Crisis. And I LOVE Crisis on Infinite Earths, but it's amazing how a lack of foresight and follow through could damage things as much as it did.

To me the top contenders for The Most Damage By CoIE was: Donna Troy, The Legion of Superheroes, Hawkman & Hawkgirl and Power Girl. Now, the Legion was almost certainly the worst off, since they required an entire continuity reboot to fix the mess (granted, Giffen certainly didn't help the mess), and both Power Girl and the Hawks were eventually fixed.

But Donna? For some reason, EVERYONE obsesses over her origin. Everyone needs to come up with some new explanation for her, and they just got more and more contrived over time. What's especially sad is that George Perez was the one who screwed this up due to when he decided to have Wonder Woman debut. He could have easily fixed this by pulling a Man of Steel and having Diana's original visit to Man's World happen far enough in the past that it wouldn't mess with Donna's origin.

It's something that continues into the modern age. Since DC has decided to keep the origin of Diana being a bastard child of Zeus ( :roll: ), they decided to give Donna Troy Diana's Pre-Flashpoint origin of being sculpted from clay. But whereas Diana Pre-Flashpoint was treated as someone whose origins were supernatural but was otherwise a completely organic person with a soul, Donna Troy was considered a kind of golem that didn't register as organic, and could even have her arm cut off without bleeding to death. It manages to simultaneously be disrespectful to Donna AND to Diana's old origin.

I swear if I ever got control over DC, I'd retcon the following:

- Hippolyta creates Diana out of clay sometime prior to World War II.
- Steve Trevor crashes on Paradise Island during World War II. Hippolyta answers the call for help and adventures as the Golden Age Wonder Woman.
- During the War, Steve and Hippolyta form a romantic relationship, and eventually she gives birth to a daughter, Lyta Trevor.
- After the War, Hippolyta must return home, and decides that the Amazons might not react well to Lyta, leaves her to be raised with Steve.
- Hippolyta makes the occasional journey off the island to visit her daughter. This partially inspires in Diana wonder lust that affects her later.
- Hippolyta later rescues a young girl from a fire that leaves her an orphan. With no other family, Hippolyta takes her back to Paradise Island to see how the Amazons react to an outsider. They rename her Donna Troy. She becomes like a younger sister to Diana and the Amazons love her.
- Eventually, the way Donna was welcomed by the Amazons causes Hippolyta to return to Earth and meet with Lyta, who is now in teens. Steve has died and she was living in a foster home, so Hippolyta takes her back to Paradise Island as well.
- Lyta is not as warmly received, though she is accepted by Donna, which in turn causes most of the island to accept her, while a small portion see Lyta as proof of the corrupting nature of Man's World and a blemish on Hippolyta's legacy. Lyta and Diana have a rocky relationship, as Lyta thinks of Diana as "mommy's favorite" while Diana feels that Lyta is Hippolyta's "real daughter". Lyta also faces some bullying from that small Amazon group, and between that, her abandonment issues and the like, grows up with some anger issues.
- Diana eventually leaves the island to become Wonder Woman. During a Justice League mission that involved the JLA's sidekicks working together, Donna wound up meeting Robin, Kid Flash, Speedy and Aqualad, and decided to leave the island with them, becoming Wonder Girl and forming the Teen Titans.
- Lyta would feel more like an outcast with Diana and Donna gone (for reasons real and imagined) and would eventually leave the island to become the superheroine Fury, and hang out with the children of other JSA heroes.

There. Problem solved.

Outfit wise, the last one I saw her in was actually a pretty good combo of her various uniforms, combining her classic outfit with the starfield look to create:

Image

Re: Aqualad
I liked how the Young Justice cartoon went with the idea of Atlantis having a highly magical society. Making it this sort of magical fantasy world gives it a unique flavor and helps subvert a lot of "Atlantis is boring". Having Garth then master magic related to water and few other things was a good way to differentiate him from Aquaman
Re: Hawk and Dove
Have to be amongst the best examples of a good concept that has never seen a perfect execution. As everyone has said, with Hawk and Dove the idea should be that both sides have a point and both sides are necessary. There's a time for diplomacy and contemplation, and there's a time for swift, decisive action and taking the initiative. And the ultimate goal of the two should be to show how both sides can come together, compromise and be effective. The differences should have created surface-level tension and arguments, but underneath that should be two people who can bridge those differences and work together effectively.

It is clear where the majority of writers side tho, because Hawk is almost always written as some violent, dense meathead while Dove is the calm, wise, plan-maker. It's a solid concept that needs someone who, at best, leans a little left or right of center, or is more or less a centrist who uses them to show the pros and cons of both sides. I liked the idea someone mentioned about how if Hawk and Dove both agree that someone is wrong or right, then it's likely that person is.

It is sort of hilarious how little the "female Hawk" wound up mattering. She's like a checklist of warnings for someone who is doomed for either death or obscurity. She's a suddenly introduced sibling. She's a gender-swap replacement hero of someone who is well known enough to have a fanbase but not well known enough to be super popular, making her expendable. The existing fanbase were unhappy with the death of her predecessor.
Re: Raven
Raven is an example of a great character design ruined by very vague powers and writers who only know how to tell one story with her. There's plenty of good story ideas with her that could involve Trigon without her ever having to deal with her possibly turning evil again. The idea of her having to deal with other children of Trigon is actually an amazing idea, and could have worked to give her a mini-rogues gallery or an arch nemesis.

I can see why the cartoon went with the idea of her mostly using telekinesis, though the idea was more that she was a spellcaster and was using dark energy to lift things, create shields, energy blasts, fly, teleport, etc. It's more visually interesting, but it gets away from her empathic and healing abilities, as well as her fairly unique Soul Self power.

A compromise might have been to make her a ritual spellcaster, but she could extend her Soul Self out of her body in the form of energy blasts, shields or the telekinetic effect, and she had to manifest her full on Soul Self for big effects like group teleportation and the like.
Re: Red Star
I always kind of liked Red Star, who I believe is comics first real Russian superhero. He was a good example of how you didn't need to vilify everyone on the other side and allow that you could see heroes everywhere. It is also a little funny how his powers were initially basically that of being a Russian Captain America, having slightly superhuman strength, speed and durability. Later on his power levels would climb a bit, but he was never much to write home about.

It is kind of sad that DC never really had as much fun with Soviet Superheroes to even the extent Marvel did, and Marvel really only had the one team. Aside from Red Star, DC had the Rocket Reds, which never really amounted to anything, and a teen team of Russian heroes called the Soyuz who never really amounted to much. There was also a few Russian speedsters (Blue Trinity?) but they were largely forgotten Flash opponents. I've personally been a fan of every nation on a superhero Earth having its own 'Avengers' level team, and Red Star seems like he would have been a good candidate to upgrade to Russia's #1 hero. The Teen Titans cartoon again did a decent job of showcasing him as such an effective super soldier that the rest of the Titans just watched him beat up the threat of the week on his own.
Re: Danny Chase
Not sure what else needs to be said about Danny Chase. As a plainsclothes, superpowered brat who gets talked up by everyone, is a rude jerk to established heroes and who was constantly shoved down the fans throats, he'd fit in well on Marvel's Runaways. Or Marvel of the last 4 years or so. Though at least I can say that he didn't get Jeph Loeb'ed into this massive powerhouse who beat all comers.

Re: Pantha and Wildebeest


Like others have said, the Wildebeest idea of a bunch of villains pretending to be a single villain was actually a good one. It's also funny how Pantha is "the ugly one", but outside of her weird feet and hands she's pretty much got the build and face of your average supermodel superheroine. She just scowls a lot. And her outfit isn't bad, something that would have made a decent Vixen outfit upgrade, but she basically was her team's "Wolverine" without the charm, so of course she wasn't going to go anywhere.
Re: Beast Boy
I actually kind of liked the idea of Beast Boy having so much "energy" when he shapeshifts, and that larger creatures use up that energy more quickly, while smaller ones use much less. Because honestly, there's no reason why he wouldn't immediately turn into a T-Rex or a Brontosaurus the first time he fights some superstrong villain. I might even argue that turning into "older" animals like dinosaurs is more of a strain on his resources for some reason, otherwise why turn into a rhino when he could turn into a triceratops? At that point he might as well just be Dino-Boy rather than Beast Boy. So the idea of rhinos and the like using up less energy makes some sense.

I'd probably play it to being something similar to Animal Man and Earth's biolosphre, where he can copy the form of existing animals easiest, but for extinct or rare animals he either needs to be in close proximity to them or their remains, or it requires more effort.

As for the character himself, probably my favorite moment from Gar was Donna's wedding, where he was working so hard to make everything perfect, and actually had an interesting moment with Cyborg. See, Donna's wedding was going to be attended by Terry's family, and Gar knew that Victor didn't want to be stared at throughout the wedding, nor did he want anyone freaked out by Vic's cybernetics (it was established that people found Vic more off-putting than Gar or Kory). So he asked his foster father Mento to use his mental powers to project an illusion over Victor to make him look normal.

And when Vic found out about it, he was PISSED. Because up until that point, no one was paying him any attention, talking to him like he was just another person, and he thought it was odd, but enjoyed it for a while. Until he realized that people were a little too cool with how he looked, so he confronted Gar about it. And on learning that it was because of an illusion, Victor was outraged. He thought that he had turned some kind of corner in his life, that people had gotten over his appearance and he wouldn't need to feel like a freak all of the time. Instead, he just felt like more of a freak because his friend felt the need to cover him up for the sake of the wedding.

Naturally Gar felt like crap about this, but Vic later talked to him and apologized. He realized that Gar had done this for Vic, but mostly for Donna. It was her wedding and Gar had done everything to make it perfect, while Vic had made it all about himself. And he had to admit, it was nice enjoying the party as a regular guy. So the two friends made up and things went on as normal.

It really showcased how, for all of his goofing around, Gar really was more thoughtful than he gave himself credit for. He even did things like arrange a clown to be at the wedding to entertain the 15+ younger kids in one area of the wedding so the adults could enjoy themselves. At the end, the Titans gave him an award as best wedding planner ever.

It showed how you could write a character as the team goof, but also throw some layers in to show that he really was a complex guy, that he really did pay attention to detail and worry about stuff, but that he joked mainly to relax and deal with the pain in his life.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Kole! Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling!)

Post by Ares »

I also just re-read the Donna / Terry wedding issue, and it really is just about perfect. No supervillain fights, plenty of tributes to the Titan's past, wonderful little character moments, fantastic art, it's amazing.
"My heart is as light as a child's, a feeling I'd nearly forgotten. And by helping those in need, I will be able to keep that feeling alive."
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Kole! Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Oh yeah, the Wedding of Donna Troy was an absolute CLASSIC. No "superhero stuff", just great, old-fashioned storytelling. I love how they include little things like the clown being extremely professional- "Of COURSE- when you hire Bonzo the Clown, you hire PROMPTNESS!", and the stuffy butler both respecting Gar's work ethic and smart-thinking greatly, and threatening to beat the shit out of a bunch of contractors who were bossing the kid around. The bit with the clown is like how in Return of the Jedi, the Monster-Keeper cries over the death of his pet- a great minor bit that just fleshes out the background just a LITTLE BIT more.

That was also the source of the great moment where Dick & Bruce had a real, adult heart-to-heart over why Bruce was making a move to adopt Jason, when he never did so for Dick. No over-the-top theatrics, no bawling his eyes out, nothing- just two adults conversing, with one a little hurt and confused, but accepting of the answer (Bruce didn't want to replace Dick's parents, but Jason never really KNEW his, so it didn't matter).
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Kole! Raven! Danny Chase! Red Star! Changeling!)

Post by Jabroniville »

It occurs to me I don't think I've seen Pantha without the mask before- I just remember the sharp teeth and assumed she was very bestial.

Image

I mean, I don't consider that look attractive. It's like when Al Milgrom tried to draw Tigra, and she had a mouthful of pointy chompers. WAY too furry.

Image

Also freaky.

Image

aaaaaaaand glamorous, now.

Image

And here she's a bit exotic and inhuman, but not really UNATTRACTIVE.

So it seems like it's different in a lot of cases. But they definitely play up the "freak" angle, unlike with Tigra (who was seen as a sexpot from day one). She's not quite as freaky as Feral (who was often MUCH more monstrous, though Greg Capullo & Tony Daniel drew her as cute), but not really attractive.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (The Flash! Arsenal! Kole! Raven! Danny Chase!)

Post by Jabroniville »

greycrusader wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:12 am Oddly, the original Titans animated series IMPROVED on a number of minor characters such as Kole, Pantha, and Wildebeast; and arguably did a better treatment of the Deathstroke-Terra arc (sorry if this is too PC for the board, but putting the onus for the Judas Arc on the 16 year old girl and not the 50+ year old lifelong mercenary and assassin doesn't look nearly as good in the rearview mirror).

Benefit of hindsight I guess.

All my best.

PS: I imagine after seeing those new images of Pantha, Jab is now frantically rewriting her entry..."best cat-woman in comics!...Attractive 2...face behind panther mask only adds to exotic beauty...."
One thing the cartoon seemed to be very good about was taking the unpopular or unused minor leaguers and actually TRYING with them. Bumblebee's modern-day push seems to be entirely drawn from the cartoon, for example. Wolfman just fell apart by the time Pantha & Wildebeest joined the Titans, so they had no chance, and went largely unremembered- JLA/Titans just has Baby do a couple of silly things, while Pantha gets called a "Catwoman Wannabe!" by Selina Kyle herself. And then their next appearance sees both of them skooshed.

I mean, I didn't care for the show, but full credit for taking something like Kole and going "Hey, let's try to DO something with this" and looking at Pantha and going "so let's not go with the Wolverine Knock-Off thing here- what else is there that can make her stand out?"


---

A tricky thing I'm finding with Titans builds, by the way, is the endless way DC characters tend to... overlap each other. Like, you stat up ONE character, and then you think you should stat up their FRIENDS, because then it's a set. And characters who jump to multiple teams. It spirals completely out of control. It's why I never wanted to do a "DC Golden Age" set, because then you're leaving out their successors. You have to make cuts or you end up statting up the entire universe at once, because everyone's on multiple teams.

For example, when I statted the Justice League 3-4 years ago, that required posting Dick, Kori, Wally & Roy once more. Even though three of them are FAR more associated with the Teen Titans. But I can't just leave them out THIS time, because... they're TITANS. Iconic members, no less. But it also means I have to post Dick Grayson without the rest of the Batman Family, Roy Harper without any other "Arrow" cast member, and Wally without any other speedsters. It just FEELS WEIRD to leave some of them out, but you really have to, or it's just never-ending and you lose the theme.

Wally is a really notable one, because he's not an iconic Titan any longer- despite his long run on three incarnations of the book, he's more iconic as THE FLASH, not Kid Flash. So he's almost out of place on here.

It's funny, though, that my distaste for statting modern DC characters meant I'd never touched on anyone from the modern Titans unless they were big elsewhere. Now THAT set is gonna be mostly new stuff.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Cyborg

Post by Jabroniville »

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CYBORG (Victor Stone)
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & George Perez
First Appearance: DC Comics Presents #26 (Oct. 1980)
Role: Angry Black Man, Angry Freak, Permanent Status-Quo Guy
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League
PL 10 (184)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 6 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 1
INTELLIGENCE 4 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+12)
Deception 2 (+4)
Expertise (Science) 2 (+7)
Expertise (Streetwise) 3 (+7)
Expertise (Sports) 4 (+8) (Uses Agility)
Insight 3 (+4)
Intimidation 5 (+7)
Investigation 4 (+5)
Perception 7 (+8)
Persuasion 3 (+5)
Technology 8 (+12)
Vehicles 9 (+12)

Advantages:
Beginner's Luck, Diehard, Equipment (Minor Tech Tools), Extraordinary Effort, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Critical 2 (Unarmed, Ranged Weapons), Improved Hold, Jack-of-All-Trades, Ranged Attack 9, Set-Up, Startle, Teamwork

Powers:
"Molybdenum Steel Body Parts"
Power-Lifting 1 (12 tons) [1]
Protection 2 [2]
Speed 2 (8 mph) [2]

"Boot Jets" Leaping 5 (250 feet) [5]
"Computer Interface" Communication (Technological) 2 [8]
"Telescopic Eye & Sound Enhancer" Senses 5 (Extended & Infravision, Extended & Ultra-Hearing, Radio Sense) [5]

"White Sound Generator- Loud Setting" Dazzle Hearing 10 (20) -- [24]
  • AE: "White Sound Generator- Blaster" Blast 10 (Diminished Range -1) (19)
  • AE: "White Sound Generator- Wide-Angle Blast" Damage 10 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Cone +1/2) (15)
  • AE: "Finger Laser" Blast 8 (Feats: Accurate) (17)
  • AE: "Grappling Hook" Movement 1 (Swinging) (2)
Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
White Sound- Dazzle +10 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
White Sound- Blaster +10 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
White Sound- Wide-Angle Cone +10 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Finger Laser +12 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +11 (DC 21), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +8, Fortitude +7, Will +8

Complications:
Motivation (Helping Out On the Streets)- While his parents were well-off, Vic hung around with a bad crowd in his rebellious days, and recognizes the struggles of those who live on the streets of New York. He watched a lot of friends die because of addictions as well. His time on the streets gave him a near-permanent slang ("lissen" for "listen", "mebbe" instead of "maybe", etc.), but he rejected the gang he used to hang out with.
Relationship (Parents)- Silas & Elinor Stone were Victor's scientist parents, who were often strict and overly-obsessed with their own research. Victor rebelled early and often, and when he was injured as a result of his parents' experiments (and his mother killed), then turned into "a freak" by his father, Victor was enraged ("I HATE you, old man! I HATE YOU!"). It took him years to get over his hatred for his father.
Relationship (Garfield Logan, aka "Changeling")- Though Vic was frequently annoyed by his teammate the "talking salad", he & Gar grew into best friends, making fun of each other out of love, rather than sheer annoyance.
Relationship (Sarah Simms)- It was love at first sight for Victor, when he first met the pretty blonde who cared for children with prosthetic limbs (Vic could relate). However, her heart belonged to another, and Vic learned to love her as a friend instead.
Relationship (Dr. Sarah Charles)- The other Sarah in Vic's life was a black scientist at S.T.A.R. Labs, who helped him recuperate after he had his cybernetic parts replaced with human-looking versions (they soon broke down). They dated for some time, but split up when he lost his humanity as "Cyberion".
Relationship (Grandparents)- Victor's ever-amusing grandparents are a couple of old fossils from the Chitlin Circuit of travelling vaudeville performers ("you couldn't knock them off with nukes"). They boss him around effortlessly, and don't put up with any of his lip (or his whining about his looks).
Prejudice (Freak)- Victor cannot pass for an ordinary human- his cybernetic limbs and head make him easily stand out in a crowd. He draws fear and disgust from some, and cannot maintain a secret identity.
Responsibility (Losing Humanity)- Vic occasionally gets lost in the fact that he is not entirely human- at times his body is much more mechanical, causing him to shut himself down from humanity. In the '90s run he was almost entirely mechanical, and later he became a full robot in the "Technis Era". A search to become human often motivates him.
Weakness (Magnetics)- As a cyborg, Victor is prone to being frozen or trapped by powerful magnets. Seriously, this happened to him quite a bit.

Total: Abilities: 72 / Skills: 54--27 / Advantages: 22 / Powers: 47 / Defenses: 16 (184)

Cyborg- Oddly DC's Biggest Black Character:
-Cyborg was your standard "angry black man" in the initial part of Wolfman's Titans run- intentionally so, as he would give a reason for his rage and bitterness (his father turned him into a scary metal man), and then immediately redeem him as a running storyline in the '80s, as Victor Stone made friends (including Sarah Simms, a great character who sadly never got to hook up with Victor because Wolfman felt it was too generic to gave the "black man/white woman" plot device), helped the Titans through some tough times, and became overall one of the greatest black characters comics ever produced. Though he often talked a BIT too "street" by modern sensibilities (he always says “lissen” instead of “listen”, for instance-it probably fit more in the '80s, and let's be honest- that whole "Tough-talking" thing came from SOMEWHERE so it's not like they just made it up), they avoided the whole "Jive-Talkin'" thing that hampered the '60s Titans. All in all, Cyborg is one of the most-iconic members of the most-popular era of the Titans.

-Victor Stone grew up the child of two scientific geniuses. Though intelligent himself, he resented then using him as an experiment in the IQ-growing projects, and rebelled by focusing on athletics instead, and hanging out with the wrong crowd. Silas, his father, even raged back, pissed that his son would waste his potential, and openly worry about his future (“You ever look at him? All that coiled-up energy, waiting to explode”). However, he pulled back from his friend’s attempts at racially-motivated terrorism, eventually stopping him. His hatred of his parents only grew when an interdimensional teleportation experiment by his parents went awry, fatally-injuring his mother and leaving him mostly disintegrated. Only the quick actions of Silas Stone saved Victor, who was horrified to discover himself a freakish man of metal. “I HATE YOU, OLD MAN!! I HATE YOU!!”

Cyborg- A Marvel Character in the DC Universe:
-The whole “rough life; looks horrible” thing is SO Marvel Comics, which is part of why he fit in so well with the Wolfman/Pérez Titans, and why I now think he fits in so poorly with the Justice League (which is usually supposed to be “The Most DC” characters). In any case, his athletic career in ruins, and a volatile relationship with his father (always called “Silas” after a point), Victor eventually falls in with the other outcasts on the Titans. He is, in many ways, the least-utilized member of the team other than Kid Flash- no huge story arcs, no events centred around him, etc.- it was all good stuff, but he had no equivalent to what the others had. But still, it was good stuff, and none of the fans hated him. Honestly, he kind of centered the rest of the team, with his more down to earth personality and his more “hard science” powers instead of alien stuff or magic. He and Silas eventually reconciled, just as the old man was dying.

-It was cute how this outcast found his place with a group of kids who were in a class for those with amputated limbs (the “I have a prosthesis too” but was so iconic that the CARTOON used it, completely intact). He also had a fun argumentative thing with “that walking salad”- a perfect rip-off of the Johnny Storm/Ben Grimm relationship. His biggest arc is probably how he finally got his dream- prostheses that actually resembled human limbs, thus making him not a freak. He gladly walked away from the Titans, but had a great training montage showing just how hard he had to work to get his body used to the new parts. His relationship with the STAR Labs scientist in charge of his physical therapy was hilarious, too- he whined the entire way while she yelled at him and shamed him, and ultimately they OF COURSE fell in love and got him fixed... but then, in a moment straight out of Marvel, he ruined his chance at normalcy in order to save his friends, as the parts couldn’t hold up to a superhero fight.

-Victor didn’t get up to much afterwards, however, being reduced to the backgrounds. In the “Titans Hunt” arc, he was brutalized further, being transformed into the cold, inhuman “Cyberion”. A horrible, ‘90s-style move that left him ruined- he ran off with the Technis aliens- robots that wanted to Learn What It Is To Be Human. He vanished for most of the 1990s.

Victor Returns:
-Cyborg would return for the JLA/Titans Story, having given over his mind completely to the Technis, who tried to make him happy by reuniting him with his friends. However, their methods for doing so led to the abduction of every single living past Titan, whether or not Vic knew them personally. An act that led to a planet-size amalgamation of machines ENCIRCLING THE MOON and causing a huge fight between the “let’s go kick some ass” JLA and the protective Titans. Eventually, the original five Titans would talk him down (though annoyingly, this included Tempest and Arsenal, who barely knew him), along with stowaway Changeling, who knew him best and of course saved the day. Victor willingly let the Technis go, then had Raven attach his soul to the shapeshifting war vessel the Omegadrone.

-In this form, Victor rejoined the Titans (however, he’d later learn that he had no choice; the JLA demanded Nightwing keep a close eye on him). This version of Cyborg was more like the Plastic Man in action- changing shape and stretching. Eventually, after a story where villains teased him with his humanity, he got his original body back- fusing the Omegadrone with a clone of his human body. He would leave the Titans with this happy ending, but lose his Omegadrone powers in an issue of The Flash, stopping The Thinker.

Back to Basics Syndrome:
-But, of course, this is comics. And with a new reboot of the comic came Victor back in his original appearance, this time acting as a mentor to the new Titans team. He largely went through a series of brutal injuries, being one of the few heroes who could sustain them. Though at least they ramped up his scientific know-how (Wolfman rarely ever touched on it).

-All of this eventually leads to Cyborg just casually leaving the Titans, having been recruited for the JLA. This ends up being a fairly obvious “minority hire”, as Victor was DC’s highest-profile black character other than John Stewart (both owing their status to recent cartoons). And this leads to his do-nothing Leagues (during a forgettable turn on the book), and finally a spot on the new Big Seven in the “New 52”, which even led to him being in THE MOVIE. This run sees his origin as the same, but he is MUCH smarter and more powerful, thus fitting the JLA.

-Thanks to him being one of DC's most-notable black characters, Cyborg has received roles in a lot of high-profile media. He got to be on the Super Friends show in its later years. And he's served on both the Robinson Justice League, AND the modern Johns-led incarnation in the Nu52, pretty much for the same reason he was on Super Friends. But he's no mere filler or Token Character (like Black Vulcan/Lightning ended up being, and like how Avengers-related media always has to shoehorn in The Falcon if they don't want to use Black Panther)- Cyborg's actually EARNED his place, and isn't like Hawkgirl, who was shoehorned into the later Justice League cartoon because A) they wanted another chick, and B) Bruce Timm thought her mask was cool (not that Shayera didn't EVENTUALLY prove her worth, mind you)- Cyborg could easily be transferred to the big leauges. The only tricky thing is that his original form is a tad too "Seventies" in style- the wide collar part of the uniform, headband and thigh-high metal bits that resemble boots kind of making him look dated, so most modern artists mess with the dynamics of it to create a more modern character.

Vic’s Stats:
-For 2nd Edition, I had to try REALLY hard to get Vic down to PL 10 (150); thank God I don't bother with all that noise in 3e. The guy's a natural athlete, but also smart (his intellect was added to a LOT in later years, making him probably INT 7-8 or something), fast and with plenty of super-powers hidden in that cybernetic body of his. A summation of his powers is pretty hard to find, as they upgraded him from time to time, but this is as good as any for the 1980s era of Cyborg, I think- he tended to just run up, use his limbs to block some enemy fire, and blast 'em "with a couple zillion decibels o' white sound!", generally a closer-range Damage effect. Plus he's got a more accurate Laser, movement powers and more.

-As the Fuller-Conversion Cyborg, Vic was left being less defensive, but tougher (likely Toughness 10-11 total), with Multiattack Blasts on him. Of course, he had pretty much no Presence left by that point, and his Skills probably took a nosedive, too. During the era where he was a Golden Shapeshifter, he attains a kind of low-level Variable/Shapeshift that makes him act more like Plastic Man with some varied tools. JLA-New-52-era Cyborg is likely a PL 12 Blaster with Boom Tube (Interdimensional Teleportation) abilities and more.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ken
Posts: 3460
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: Sycalb, Madiganistan

Re: Cyborg

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:14 pm Cyborg- A Marvel Character in the DC Universe:
-The whole “rough life; looks horrible” thing is SO Marvel Comics, which is part of why he fit in so well with the Wolfman/Pérez Titans, and why I now think he fits in so poorly with the Justice League (which is usually supposed to be “The Most DC” characters). In any case, his athletic career in ruins, and a volatile relationship with his father (always called “Silas” after a point), Victor eventually falls in with the other outcasts on the Titans. He is, in many ways, the least-utilized member of the team other than Kid Flash- no huge story arcs, no events centred around him, etc.- it was all good stuff, but he had no equivalent to what the others had. But still, it was good stuff, and none of the fans hated him. Honestly, he kind of centered the rest of the team, with his more down to earth personality and his more “hard science” powers instead of alien stuff or magic. He and Silas eventually reconciled, just as the old man was dying.

-It was cute how this outcast found his place with a group of kids who were in a class for those with amputated limbs (the “I have a prosthesis too” but was so iconic that the CARTOON used it, completely intact). He also had a fun argumentative thing with “that walking salad”- a perfect rip-off of the Johnny Storm/Ben Grimm relationship. His biggest arc is probably how he finally got his dream- prostheses that actually resembled human limbs, thus making him not a freak. He gladly walked away from the Titans, but had a great training montage showing just how hard he had to work to get his body used to the new parts. His relationship with the STAR Labs scientist in charge of his physical therapy was hilarious, too- he whined the entire way while she yelled at him and shamed him, and ultimately they OF COURSE fell in love and got him fixed... but then, in a moment straight out of Marvel, he ruined his chance at normalcy in order to save his friends, as the parts couldn’t hold up to a superhero fight.
Wolfman has said that people used to accuse him and George of trying to rip-off the X-Men when they did the New Teen Titans, and his response was "no, we were trying to rip-off the Fantastic Four." Which is probably why Victor and Gar's relationship so resembles Ben and Johnny. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Victor *is* DC's parallel to Ben Grimm.

Physically impossible to be perceived as normal? Check.
Has regained 'humanity' only to voluntarily give it up to save friends? Check.
Street/Urban background? Check.
More technologically savvy than his demeanor let's on? Check.
Powers (and freakishness) caused by an accident? Check.
Ladyfriend who doesn't see him as a freak? Check.
My Amazing Woman: a super-hero romantic comedy podcast.

When the most powerful super hero on Earth marries an ordinary man, hilarity ensues.
Jabroniville
Posts: 24689
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Minion

Post by Jabroniville »

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MINION (Jarras Minion)
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & Rick Mays
First Appearance: The New Teen Titans #114 (Sept. 1994)
Role: Super-Pacifist
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans
PL 9 (162)
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 4 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Expertise (Science) 3 (+6)
Expertise (Xenomorphs) 3 (+6)
Perception 4 (+6)
Persuasion 5 (+7)
Technology 5 (+8)
Vehicles 6 (+10)

Advantages:
Improved Aim, Power Attack, Ranged Attack 4

Powers:
"The Omegadrone"
Shapeshift 12 (Technological Forms) [96]
-- common powers: Enhanced Strength 10, Protection 10 (Impervious 6), Blast 10 (Feats: Split), Flight 7 (250 mph), Movement 2 (Space Travel 2)

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Super-Strength +4 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Blasts +8 (+10 Ranged Damage, DC 25)
Initiative +2

Defenses:
Dodge +6 (DC 16), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +2 (+12 Omegadrone), Fortitude +4, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Pacifist)- Minion does not wish to commit acts of violence, after being convinced by Donna Troy not to execute the villain Psimon, who had committed genocide against his race. This makes owning a giant warsuit complicated.
Normal Identity (Jarras Minion)- Jarras is cybernetically-bonded to The Omegadrone, but can voluntarily leave it.

Total: Abilities: 36 / Skills: 26--13 / Advantages: 6 / Powers: 96 / Defenses: 11 (162)

-Minion was a tiny addition to Titans lore, coming in at the tail end of Marv Wolfman's run, as he did a weird shift with the team and had it be led by Arsenal as a government-controlled group (with the elite line-up of Mirage, Fake-Terra, and such). Minion was a pacifistic alien from a race completely wiped out by the villain Psimon, and came to Earth packing the shapeshifting Omegadrone armour in order to get even. He beat down Psimon, but was re-convinced of his pacifist ways by Donna Troy. He stuck around for about seven issues as a Titan, before the series was cancelled (he went off into space with Cyborg). Since then, his ONLY appearance in comics lore was to bestow the Omegadrone onto the now-bodiless Victor Stone. He didn't even say anything in the Technis Imperative storyline, in which his armour played a HUGE role, being all that held the “moon-eater” device together, and saved the day in the end. I get the impression that Devin Grayson just cleverly used his Omegadrone was a grand “way to get out every problem” without resorting to a Deus Ex Machina. His last “appearance” was in a Where Are They Now bit, explaining that he’d re-embraced his pacifist beliefs.

-Jarras sucks in combat, but wields one of the most powerful weapons in the DCU, attached to his body genetically (so it can't be disarmed like a common suit of armour). The massive Shapeshift power gives him a baseline suit of Flying Brick armour with Impervious Protection and a nasty double-cannon Blast at will, plus side powers like flight, turning into a spaceship, etc. That'd be the most overpowered thing in history, but the pacifist Minion didn't really have ANY combat skills to speak of, so he ends up as a PL 9 in spite of it.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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