Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Ares »

Woodclaw wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:39 pm One of the things I'm really glad they axed from Force Awakens was one where Maz telekinetically lifted a ton of debris. That would have made her "just" another Jedi master figure, rather than a weirder "well informed" character. It would explain way too much about her.
Ares wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:03 am Han Solo: "Where did you get [Luke's Lightsaber]?"

Maz Kanata: "A good question . . . for another time."

Rian Johnsen: "NOPE!"
This is currently addressed in Marvel's Star Wars comic (the new series that started last month and is set after Empire Strikes Back replacing the events of Shadow of the Empire).
I'd heard about that, but generally speaking I feel a mystery introduced in the films should be explained in the films. I love the novels, comics and RPG stuff, but they shouldn't be required reading to understand the story. Otherwise its basically a homework assignment. The extra material should tell new stories or expand the lore, not fill in plot holes.

That may sound odd given how often I've brought up the Revenge of the Sith novel, but that book simply tells the films story better, and wasn't required reading to know what happened in the movie.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze Malbus! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey!)

Post by Shock »

Ares wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:03 am Han Solo: "Where did you get [Luke's Lightsaber]?"

Maz Kanata: "A good question . . . for another time."

Rian Johnsen: "NOPE!"
"For another time" is just movie speak for "it doesn't matter to the plot"
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Arkrite »

If I had to to feel bad for anybody in this series... uh... well, it would be everybody.
Luke is mishandled (character assassinated?), Poe is turned into a whipping boy, Finn is relegated to comic relief, Rey has the depth of a shot glass, Hucks/Hicks(?) the First Order leader is turned into a joke, Kylo Ren never grows into a real threat just kind of a sulky teen...

But Kelly Marie Tran? Oi, I feel the worst for her because, well, she's kind of the Jar Jar Binks character for the sequel. And it's not because she does a bad job, but because she was given the worst possible role to fill.
Sadly the frumpy/dumpy getup is the easiest thing to ignore, but every action she takes from start to finish is just the director on a soap box preaching in your face and doing a poor job of it.
She gets a bunch of face time in arguably the worst of the new movies, where her role makes no sense, serves no purpose, tends to derail Finn from doing stuff which would have been more fun/interesting (No joining Rey for you, no heroic sacrifice for you, no meaningful romance subplots for you going forward). And she gets to be the face of it.

Again, in my opinion this poor actress isn't responsible, she isn't to blame, and she really shouldn't get any flak for it.
That being said, hooooooooo boy I dislike Rose's role in this movie.

Back to the frumpy thing, she does clean up better than I was expecting. Not really my type to be honest (I doubt I'd be her's either), but I have to admit she's not hard on the eyes (I, on the other hand, damage eyes).

Hmm... a nerdy girl with some cute potential going from zero to hero could have been a fun run. Gives me flashbacks to Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
So much wasted potential.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Although it is funny listening to Alysson Hannigan commenting in one of the flashback episodes (the one with the nightmares and the Cheese Man) on how for the first episode or two, she actually dressed in a non-stylish way, but the producers put the kibosh on that. Of course, given one of Buffy's powers is keen fashion sense...
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Poe Dameron

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

POE DAMERON
Role:
Hot-Shot Pilot, The Regular Guy
Group Affiliations: The Resistance
PL 7 (95)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 3
FIGHTING 6 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 5 (+7)
Expertise (Space Military) 7 (+9)
Insight 2 (+4)
Investigation 4 (+6)
Perception 7 (+9)
Persuasion 2 (+5)
Technology 3 (+5)
Vehicles 9 (+14)

Advantages:
Equipment 3 (Gear), Evasion, Ranged Attack 4, Skill Mastery (Vehicles), Ultimate Vehicles Skill

Equipment:
"Laser Blaster" Blast 5 (Extras: Multiattack) (15)

Offense:
Unarmed +6 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Laser Blaster +9 (+5 Ranged Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +3

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +6 (DC 16), Toughness +3, Fortitude +5, Will +6

Complications:
Responsibility (The Restance)
Reputation (Hot-Shot)- Poe's aggressive mentality somehow becomes bad later.
Relationship (Rey, Poe)- Finn used Poe as his ticket out of the First Order, and the two have a good rapport and remain good friends. He was extremely devoted to Rey as well, especially early on.

Total: Abilities: 52 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 13 (95)

-Poe Dameron ended up being a fairly weird character in the films- his initial role was as a Hot-Shot Pilot convinced to let Finn stow away and desert the First Order, with the two having a good Bromance to start the first movie off. Initially supposed to die in the first movie, Abrams changed his mind when Oscar Isaac, who played the character, was hesitant to accept the role, as he'd played a lot of "guys who die early" already. Instead, the character lived on into the second movie, where he became a part of the odd story involving Leia & Holdo- as a high-ranking Resistance leader, he tried to make decisions, but was often made out to be wrong or too foolhardy by the wiser, older women, despite their own questionable tactics. In the story, he was initially supposed to go with Finn to Canto Bight, but Rian Johnson felt all their dialogue was "interchangeable", and so invented the Rose character, leaving Finn on the spaceship to be lectured by the women. Despite all that, the third movie more or less slots him in as Leia's heir, as she dies and leaves him the reins of leadership... which he kind of chokes under. Unable to handle the pressure, he confesses he's at a loss, but everyone else keeps the faith and the heroes still win because Lando rallies the free people of the galaxy to their cause and Rey arrives to kill the Emperor. I dunno- I don't really have any strong feelings about the character- he doesn't get any big scenes to himself, has no iconic dialogue, and mostly looks ineffectual in the latter two movies.

-Poe is a real "Hot Shot Fighter Pilot", but not as good in a fight as most Rebel elites.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Ares »

Yeah, I already discussed the mess they made during The Last Jedi, but Rise of Skywalker didn't do him any favors either. For some strange reason they decided to make him an even more blatant Han Solo expy by giving him a criminal past as a smuggler. It's hilarious hearing Finn and Rey judge him about this when Finn was frickin Stormtrooper. It's also weird that Poe knowing how to hotwire speedsters is suspicious to them. Guys, Poe is one of the highest ranking members of a guerilla resistance movement going up against the most powerful army in the galaxy. Why WOULDN'T he know how to hotwire vehicles?

It actually would have been nice if they'd gone the other way with it, having Poe actually been someone who came from wealth and privilege who decided to fight the First Order on principal, and that his family was partially responsible for funding the Resistance and re-outfitting them with ships and tech.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Jabroniville »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:35 pm Although it is funny listening to Alysson Hannigan commenting in one of the flashback episodes (the one with the nightmares and the Cheese Man) on how for the first episode or two, she actually dressed in a non-stylish way, but the producers put the kibosh on that. Of course, given one of Buffy's powers is keen fashion sense...
That whole thing was a "view behind the curtains" look at how "Nerdy Girls" are seen on TV, and how executives view putting ANY unappealing women on-screen. The first Willow was apparently much more dumpy or believable as a nerd. But then they cast the more attractive Hannigan, then the executives went "Wait, this girl's actually hot- we "suggest" (ie. demand) that she dress accordingly.

And then the character is just a standard-issue cute girl wearing cute clothes, except now she acts goofy and underconfident, thus attracting men EVEN MORE.

But hey- Willow is the most popular Buffy character by a mile and Hannigan is the only one with a really big-time career that kept going afterwards, so who was wrong?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

At least they went with her, and she can be believably dorky.

Whedon had said he really wanted to avoid the standard supermodel in horn rimmed glasses thing one way or the other. You know like in Not Another Teen Movie, where Janie is disgusting because she wears glasses and her hair in a ponytail.....shudder
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Vice-Admiral Holdo

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

*watches credits roll* "You're kidding me?! I spend TWO HOURS lusting after DOCTOR ELLIE SATLER?!?"
-Me, watching "The Last Jedi"


VICE-ADMIRAL HOLDO (Amilyn Holdo)
Role:
Surprisingly-Loyal Character, GILF
Group Affiliations: The Resistance

-Among the most controversial elements of The Last Jedi was the bizarre, random appearance of Leia's old friend, Vice-Admiral Holdo, introduced OUT OF NOWHERE as if everyone was like "oh, her". Portrayed as an older woman with a feminine dress and purple hair, she was utterly unique-looking to the world, and shown to be very... aloof and odd. Like a lot of people, I kept waiting for it to be revealed that she was a traitor- she just seemed TOO unhelpful, too willing to ignore Poe Dameron's explanations for things, and too liable to the Resistance in the face of destruction. But I guess that was a swerve? Because she totally sacrificed herself to destroy Lord Snoke's Super-Boomerang Ship, using a one-off technique (that Abrams had to literally explain away as a "One in a million" because everyone was like "Why didn't they ALWAYS try that when they were outgunned?") in the movie's most impressive visual element.

-Her introduction seems clearly meant to evoke the Feminist elements Rian Johnson threw into the middle film- he felt that Poe would react oddly to someone so completely representing femininity. Holdo is a dress-wearing, makeup-wearing woman with hair that took a while to do- a lot different than the military gear worn by the women Poe was usually interacting with. Laura Dern, in a cast interview, more or less points out this was all deliberate- she's not "dressing like a man" in military garb. And there are a few scenes where Poe comes off as "mansplaining" to a bunch of loyal, wiser-than-thou women, often acting rather smugly about how they're ignoring him and keeping stuff from him (something that's been leveled at a LOT of PC-types- their smirking disapproval being almost as stereotyped to the movement as whiny triggered outrage). Poe was dismissed as a reckless "fly-boy" and lectured, though both Holdo & Leia confessed "I like him" in a cute bit.

-In the part that REALLY marks this as a cinematic mess, Holdo is clearly supposed to be shown as brave, wise and "correct"... except her plan fails. It's all an attempt to hide the Resistance fleeing to Crait while she distracts the First Order with a suicide run against them. And so she bravely gives her life to the cause... and the First Order just flies right on down to Crait anyways, where Luke Skywalker has to save the Resistance and covers their escape, at the cost of his OWN life. So Holdo's ENTIRE FRIGGIN' PLAN would actually have failed from the beginning, so Poe was right that she didn't really know what she was doing. Which I feel is contrary to Johnson's point.

-On the other hand... HHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!
Last edited by Jabroniville on Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by catsi563 »

So Holdo's ENTIRE FRIGGIN' PLAN would actually have failed from the beginning,
actually that was Poes fault because he was being a moron who thought he knew better then those in charge and sent finn and rose on their missions which led them to the Cracker who betrayed them and revealed the escaping shuttles.

Poes issue was the hotshot thing. its great being a hotshot when you have only yourself to worry about. but like Maverick he had to learn the hard way that when you are in command of a lot of troops and people who are looking to you to keep them alive being a hot shot gets people killed.

And lo and behold it did.

A hero can focus on the small picture

a leader has to focus on the bigger picture. that's the lesson Leia and Holdo wanted Poe to learn
Dr. Silverback has wryly observed that this is like trying to teach lolcats about Shakespeare

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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Arkrite »

Oh god... Holdo.
Honestly the most fun I've had with her is listening to all the names people who don't like that character give her.


She is portrayed in the movie as being either the bad guy, or incompetent.
I believe this is intentionally done by the director to "subvert" the expectations when he makes her the hero out of nowhere.

The problem is that all of the characters are idiots. Or at least all of them act like idiots.

Leia orders Poe to leave the dreadnought, Poe argues that they'll never have a better chance to take out the ship. Leia orders him again and he turns off his radio.
Okay, he's pushing his luck.
But why doesn't Leia just call the other ships and call them off? She's in charge, if she puts out the order the people will listen to her right?

Due to bad directing the bombers seem to slow to ever escape anything, and they tend to explode at the slightest provocation which looks neat but leaves the viewer wondering why anybody would ever use these ships.
The apparently the director loves WW2 movies with bombing runs, hence why these high tech ships have to fly over the ship and then fire the bombs down instead of just... shooting them forward at long distance?

So Poe is shown to be somebody who disregards orders when he thinks he's right, which is a terrible trait in a soldier, and is supposed to be a negative thing we're supposed to dislike.
But due to the following events we quickly see that if he hadn't taken out the Dreadnought it would have killed them all during the chase.
So... his actions are actually justified and without his actions everybody would be dead long before the Holdo plan could have been used.

This is a problem because Poe is justified in his actions, so watching him being slapped down later by Leia, and talked down to by Holdo comes across as unjustified.

Weirder the way Leia talks after she demotes him makes it sound like she's just cranky and isn't planning on it sticking.
Or maybe it was just men.

Then after Leia dies, then flies, then kills the entire cast by opening the door to outer space as they rush to save her... No seriously, check it again after Mary Poppins moment, she opens a door to outer space as Poe runs up. They should all be dead! ;~)

So Leia is out of commission. And since Akbar was killed so unceremoniously we introduce a woman in an ugly opera dress who is apparently the most important person besides Leia and Akbar.
It's hard to take her serious because while everybody else is disheveled or at least dressed to work, she's... ready for the opera, with hair and makeup done.

I suspect it's supposed to be a sign of female empowerment, to show she can be a strong military leader without having to change to seem more masculine.
I... am largely guessing that's the intent, because it just made her look completely out of touch in my opinion. Just saying: Leia wore pants when she was expecting a fight. And choked out the first guy who took her pants away.

So now I've had one person point out that Poe wanting to know the plan is not something he should expect to learn. He's a soldier, he's supposed to take orders and accept it.
Honestly I understand why he'd be hesitant, this woman who's not dressed for a fight, who appears to have spent her time doing her hair and makeup shows up for a front line fight... and he's never really met her.
The best pilot in their forces has never met this admiral... And their forces aren't that large.
She ridicules him, insults him, and tells him to sod off.

Okay, as a military officer I could accept her stating in a commanding tone that he doesn't need to know the plan, and dismissing him. But she doesn't act professionally, she acts like it's personal.

Eventually Poe pretty much begs her to just tell them that there IS a plan, and she still refuses to do so much as say "Yes, there is a plan, we need everybody to stand ready there won't be much time to pull this off when it happens."
Instead she says nothing... in front of a large number of the crew. This has to be horrible for morale.

But like I said, everybody is stupid.
-Hucks and Kylo decide not to send squadrons of fighters to destroy the ships because... uh...
-Hucks and Kylo decide not to send Star Destroyers ahead to destroy the ships because... uh...
-Nobody uses the escape pod/ship thing to jump to hyperspace, even though Finn and Rose do it without issues.

-Finn and Rose decide to park their ship on the beach instead of... parking it in the proper location? Or parking it far enough away to avoid causing issues? Nope, park it right on the beach in front of the casino where it's sure to be an issue.
-After failing to find the right hacker they just take the first guy who says he can do it... instead of calling Maz again.

-Rey... thinks Kylo can be saved because she... saw him shirtless? I mean, come on, he attacked, kidnapped, attempted to torture her, stabbed her only friend, nearly killed her and she like him because... uh...

Yeah, everybody's carrying the idiot ball.

Now the problem is that since Poe comes across as being in the right, and Holdo is framed as likely being incompetent or evil, so when they director attempts to subvert our expectations by making her the hero... there's no build up for it, no justification for it, and worse when Poe learns the plan and says "that could work" I was left thinking that she could have prevented this situation and chose not to.

And then... oh my, and then after Poe mutinies and the trained soldiers fail to keep their eyes on the prisoners, Holdo pulls her pistol out of... her butt? Hammerspace? Maybe she has an arsenal hidden in the neck folds of that dress, I don't know.
And the Leia wakes up, and rather than talk to Poe, who appears to be happy to see her, she shoot him. Okay, fine, it's an emergency and they're despirate...

But then Leia and Holdo chat and Holdo says "I like him".

My wife started hurling F bombs at the screen at that point in the movie with some choice insults I've NEVER heard her say before.

And I agree with her. Holdo is obnoxious and insulting, and suddenly "Ho ho ho, I think he's such a charming fellow". It comes across as a rather tone deaf attempt to humanize Holdo and make her likable but fails to land.

Then to give this... Okay, I had insults here but lets keep this classy, to make Holdo into the hero after all of our Male characters have managed to screw up everything, she "bravely" throws away her life and takes out most of the enemy forces by hyperspace jumping at the enemies.
Other people have pointed out how this action breaks space combat in all the Star Wars movies, so I'll skip it.

And this action... still fails to do anything. The First Order still hunts down the heroes like it's nothing.

And I just realized that they shouldn't have gotten away at the end. Doesn't the First Order ships still have hyperspace trackers? Can't they just follow the Falcon and kill the last fourteen members of the Resistance?

Sorry Jab, I know you like her but... that dress his horrible.
Wait... is that a fricken metal halo in her hair? :roll:
Agh...
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Re: Vice-Admiral Holdo

Post by slade the sniper »

Jabroniville wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:14 am
*watches credits roll* "You're kidding me?! I spend TWO HOURS lusting after DOCTOR ELLIE SATLER?!?"
-Me, watching "The Last Jedi"


-On the other hand... HHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNSSSSSSSSSSSSSSKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!
You, sir...are odd. :mrgreen:

-STS
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Ares »

catsi563 wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:07 am
So Holdo's ENTIRE FRIGGIN' PLAN would actually have failed from the beginning,
actually that was Poes fault because he was being a moron who thought he knew better then those in charge and sent finn and rose on their missions which led them to the Cracker who betrayed them and revealed the escaping shuttles.

Poes issue was the hotshot thing. its great being a hotshot when you have only yourself to worry about. but like Maverick he had to learn the hard way that when you are in command of a lot of troops and people who are looking to you to keep them alive being a hot shot gets people killed.

And lo and behold it did.

A hero can focus on the small picture

a leader has to focus on the bigger picture. that's the lesson Leia and Holdo wanted Poe to learn
Except Poe is shown to consistently make the right decisions with the information available to him. Key part of said sentence being "available to him".

Poe's actions in The Force Awakens are all above board and beyond reproach. No one questions what he does there.

The Last Jedi, he's the primary driving force that takes out the Dreadnought, does most of the work of taking out its weapons and it's largely due to the insanely stupid bomber designs that any good guys die. If he hadn't done what he did, the Dreadnought would have followed them through hyperspace thanks to the tracker and destroyed them all. He gets reprimanded for this.

When Leia is taken out and Holdo is placed in charge, Poe is very straightforward, even respectful, about asking what the plan is. And rather than give him anything resembling an answer, Holdo is evasive, condescending and insulting. She brings up his demotion (which he received for saving the lives of everyone on the ship), she brings up his character, she talks about him being a hotshot pilot, and she does nothing but belittle him.

Poe is forced to watch people he has worked with die and given no explanation for it. Despite his demotion, with the command staff gone and Leia incapacitated, Poe is one of the only high ranking individuals left under Holdo and she does not see fit to share the plan with him. She continues to snipe at him and act bewildered that someone in a position of authority in a military wants to know what the plan is. He isn't some grunt questioning a general, he is the best pilot in the fleet and her highest ranking officer questioning someone who wouldn't have been his superior without the demotion.

Seriously, the only reason Holdo outranks him is because he was demoted from Commander to Captain, and then the only other Commander transfers all authority to Holdo, making her Vice Admiral.

Instead of following anything resembling military protocol, she is snide to Poe, berates him, and refuses to share any information with him. Her actions are suspicious, are apparently getting people killed, and she does nothing to justify them. With that information, Poe launches his plan with Rose and Finn.

Later on, Holdo's actions have driven the crew to such desperation that Poe gets a large number of the Resistance to mutiny, and even as he's doing it he is PLEADING with her to give them some kind of hope and just explain what in the Hell she is actually doing. Instead of actually doing anything reasonable, she again berates Poe and refuses to do anything, looking like an incompetent.

It's only after Leia wakes up that the situation is resolved, he learns what the plan is, and Leia chides him that Holdo was more interested in the survival of the Resistance than being a hero, implying that all of Poe's actions were based around personal glory and being the guy to fly in and save the day.

Excccccceeeeeeept that Poe's actions are motivated entirely about keeping the Resistance alive. Everything he does is to save people while understanding the risks involved, that a brave minority must often risk their lives to save the majority. And the SECOND he is told about the plan, he says, "This just might work" and is completely on board with it, giving it his full support.

Let me repeat that.

The SECOND Poe knows that the plan is, HE IS COMPLETELY ON BOARD WITH IT.

If Holdo had just told him the plan the first time he asked instead of lecturing him like he was some highschool student caught smoking while on a field trip to an army base, none of this would have happened. He would have gone along with it, Finn and Rose wouldn't have left, they wouldn't have been betrayed by the code breaker . . . and the questionable plan likely still would have failed because it was a plan that could be thwarted by a First Order soldier looking out a window and seeing the escaping ships.

Or by having the most powerful Dark Side User in the galaxy onboard a ship who can sense life, and track the Resistance that way.

And lets say, for argument's sake, Holdo was trying to teach Poe a lesson in following the chain of command, instead of simply being an evasive, condescending idiot who has no idea of how to inspire her crew, delegate authority, or to order the ships that have been evacuated to turn around and Hyperspace through the enemies to deal as much damage as possible before they themselves are destroyed.

Let's ignore all of that and say that Holdo was trying to teach Poe about learning to see the big picture. You know when is not the time to try and teach someone a lesson? When you have the entire enemy fleet chasing you in a prolonged space chase and you need to keep moral up and cooperation at its maximum. The fact that Poe got so many people to mutiny shows what a piss poor job Holdo was doing in terms of inspiring people and making them believe they could survive.

So no, even giving Holdo the benefit of the doubt and every break I can give her . . . this is still all her fault.
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Ares »

Arkrite wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:52 am But like I said, everybody is stupid.
-Hucks and Kylo decide not to send squadrons of fighters to destroy the ships because... uh...
-Hucks and Kylo decide not to send Star Destroyers ahead to destroy the ships because... uh...
None of the First Orders ships use their tractor beams because . . . apparently the Sequel Trilogy forgot those exist?
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Re: Jab’s Builds! (Baze! Chirrut Imwe! K-2SO! Rey! Rinn! Rose!)

Post by Arkrite »

Ares wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:09 am None of the First Orders ships use their tractor beams because . . . apparently the Sequel Trilogy forgot those exist?
You know I've always had an assumption that I have no basis for, but I always assumed the tractor beams had a shorter range than the lasers.
I have no idea why I think that, either.
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