Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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FuzzyBoots
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Re: Heihachi Mishima

Post by FuzzyBoots »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:00 pm HEIHACHI MISHIMA
Eric Jacobus as Heihachi

And his move notes:
Breakdown - Heihachi Mishima is Shotokan Karate to the bone, with lots of low horse and front stances, chops, and hammer fists. His no-handed triple sweep is undoubtedly his most difficult real-life move, with the same animation as Kazuya and Jin's sweeps. The rest of Heihachi's moves are mostly heavy strikes, which are incredibly difficult to make effective in real life.
As a side note, he has a tutorial for the Spinning Demon Kick despite it being entirely motion capture in the game.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Haha, these notes on the styles are great.

I'm reminded of how Japanese Fighting Games tend to treat Karate as the be-all/end-all style of the Main Heroes, while other styles are for side-characters. And since I've been reading some of Dave Meltzer's "Wrestling Observer" pages from the debut of the UFC, I'm comparing it with the outburst that happened when the Gracies debuted their style on the world stage, embarrassing most of the other active styles in the process. Apparently Karate & Taekwondo guys in particular were FURIOUS at their styles being exposed so badly against the grapple-heavy Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and the after-effects are still being felt today, with both styles now being known more for "McDojos" and training kids than training actual elite fighters.

Humorously enough, BJJ ITSELF has faltered, as the weaknesses in that style meant that people were shoring it up with wrestling (because Dan Severn was easily capable of handling the Gracies' grappling game- he only lacked finishing power... being a wrestler who was meant to get pins) and Muay Thai (because BJJ lacks good strikes). So now that style itself is merely one of the "Three Pillars" while the Gracies themselves are now known for being fight-duckers or guys who demand matches under their specific, BJJ-favoring, rules.

And of course BJJ almost never appears in video games, as "awkwardly fumbling on the mat with your dick in your opponent's face" is really uncinematic :).
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drkrash
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by drkrash »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:10 pm And of course BJJ almost never appears in video games, as "awkwardly fumbling on the mat with your dick in your opponent's face" is really uncinematic :).
That made me laugh. Elsewhere, I heard MMA fighting in general referred to as "sweaty dick-punching." Can't think of it any other way now.
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Ares
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by Ares »

Probably this old Penny Arcade comic.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by Ares »

Also, I seriously want to retcon Dr. Wily as being Heihachi's half-brother due to an affair their dad had with a German woman, maybe someone who contributed to the Jack project and raised her son to love robotics.
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M4C8
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Re: Bob Richards

Post by M4C8 »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:43 pm
Jabroniville wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:39 am BOB RICHARDS (aka Slim Bob)
Eric Jacobus doing Bob's moveset

Move notes:
Breakdown - The talented Japanese fellow who motion captured Bob Richards is nowhere near the character's girth. In fact he's a slender, super-acrobatic fellow who can do almost anything. Bob was a pain because it was the first time I had to try a real corkscrew. I put it in the video, and you can see me land flat on my face. I also attempted this movelist with a pillow under my shirt with moderate success, though that movelist will have to be part of a different video.
As a side note, there is some truth to bulking up. There's a fun video I watched involving an older small martial arts master trying to even budge a really chunky guy. A running two-foot drop kick made him take a small step back. That said, with bulk often comes lesser mobility and endurance (since you have to move more mass), so it's no guarantee of success, of course, and someone who has the same weight but in muscle mass is superior in many ways (although having excess body weight does carry some advantages once weapons are involved, because having an inch carved into fat is a lot safer than having an inch carved into muscles and the organs below, c.f. Roman gladiators).
I remember seeing a fight years ago where one guy was massively built, he was much stronger than his opponent and had a longer reach, on paper it looked like he was a sure thing to win. The smaller guy was much more conventionally athletic (and obviously could take a beating) and sort of just held out as long as he could, as the fight went on the bigger guy got slower and slower to the point where at the end (due to his size) he could hardly breathe and looked like he was going to pass out. The small guy then steamrolled in and got the win.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by Ares »

When it comes to martial arts, there is definitely a contingent that wants to keep their styles "pure" and those that want them to adapt to the times. And honestly, I think there's room for both, at least after a fashion. The main problem with "pure" styles is that they often suffer from what TV Tropes would call "Crippling Overspecialization", as well as a lot of insular competition. Karate schools tend to only have tournaments against other Karate schools, with rules tailored to those styles. You never see a Karate tournament that ALSO lets the Tae Kwon Do school compete, because you'd need much more flexible rules. So when a striking style goes up against a grappling style designed specifically to exploit the lack of grappling techniques, the striking style is going to be in trouble. It doesn't help that in some countries, they have a national martial art that is a source of pride for the country, so changing it would be seen as an admittance of cultural weakness.

At some point everyone figures out that there is no "perfect" martial arts style, because if it was perfect, everyone would use it. Instead, what every martial artist should be doing is trying to build a martial arts style that is perfect for them. Every martial artist should have knowledge of striking, grappling, tumbling, ground fighting and the like, but after that, "pure" styles should exist for martial artists to basically pick and choose from in order to find something that suits them.

Bruce Lee's education started with various types of Kung Fu, which included Wing Chun, but he eventually incorporated aspects of boxing, and other martial arts. He worked on building his endurance and paid attention to kicks both for their power and to compensate for his relative lack of reach. And he adopted a more aggressive style to match his personality, since Lee wanted to control the pace of a fight and felt defensive styles gave the opponent too much control. But what worked for the lightning fast, 5'8" / 128 lbs Lee wouldn't work for a 6'2" guy with over 200 lbs of heavy muscles. Differences in body type and personality do matter.

So yeah, a solid martial arts style needs to really be something pursued by the individual artist, and have a solid basis in things that will likely matter in every fight. You need to know how to hit, you need to know how to be hit, you need to know the ins and outs of grappling, you need to know how to take a fall and you need to know what to do when the fight gets to the floor. But after that, go out there and pick and choose what works for you. If you have that basic grounding and then want to have a focus on Karate Style strking, then you've got the basics to help cover up any lack of knowledge Karate might have that you can fall back on. After that, it's just a matter of sparring with a wide number of people and doing what you can to make sure your skills work in the real world and not just in a dojo.
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Kuma

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

KUMA I
Role:
Fighting Bear, Training Partner
First Appearance: Tekken
Total Appearances: Tekken 1-2
PL 7 (77)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE -3 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+8)
Athletics 5 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+9)
Expertise (Martial Arts) 4 (+1)
Intimidation 8 (+7)
Perception 6 (+5)

Advantages:
Chokehold, Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Hold, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Prone Fighting, Startle

Powers:
"Ursine Senses" Senses 4 (Acute & Extended Scent, Low-Light Vision, Scent-Tracking) [4]
"Special Moves" Strength-Damage +2 (Inaccurate -1) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +9 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Special Moves +7 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +9 (DC 19), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Heihachi Mishima)- Kuma was adopted by Heihachi as a cub, and is very loyal.
Rivalry (Paul Phoenix)- Paul defeated Kuma in both tournaments.
Responsibility (Lazy)- Kuma likes to nap.
Disabled (Bear)- Kuma cannot speak (though most characters can understand him), nor can he use his paws to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 5 / Defenses: 10 (77)

-One of the first clues that the dark, cynical Tekken wasn't JUST about being EXTREEEEEEEEEEME was the existence of Kuma, a FRIGGIN' BEAR, as a Sub-Boss in the very first game. Kuma is the pet of Heihachi Mishima himself, having been adopted as a cub. Heihachi took the bear under his wing, TRAINED HIM IN MARTIAL ARTS, and taught him sign language, making him both smarter than the average bear, and capable of throwing GODDAMN POWERBOMBS as part of his offense. Kuma was Heihachi's bodyguard, and sent against Paul Phoenix- he lost. Humiliated, Kuma redoubled his efforts in training, but was again beaten. As bears cannot live that long, Kuma was replaced in the third game by his Generation Xerox son, Kuma II.

-In the first game, Kuma is designed like an Asiatic Black Bear, but was altered in Tekken 2 into a Japanese Brown Bear.

Image

KUMA II
Role:
Fighting Bear, Training Partner
First Appearance: Tekken
Total Appearances: Tekken 3-7, Tekken Tag Tournament 1-2, Street Fighter X Tekken
PL 8 (81)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 9 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE -3 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+8)
Athletics 5 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 2 (+11)
Expertise (Martial Arts) 4 (+1)
Intimidation 8 (+7)
Perception 6 (+5)

Advantages:
Chokehold, Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Hold, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Prone Fighting, Startle

Powers:
"Ursine Senses" Senses 4 (Acute & Extended Scent, Low-Light Vision, Scent-Tracking) [4]
"Special Moves" Strength-Damage +2 (Inaccurate -1) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Special Moves +9 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Heihachi Mishima)- Kuma was adopted by Heihachi as a cub, and is very loyal.
Rivalry (Paul Phoenix)- Kuma II holds his father's hatred of Paul.
Relationship (Panda)- Kuma II is in love with Panda, who disregards him, thinking that she is too old for him.
Responsibility (Lazy)- Kuma likes to nap.
Disabled (Bear)- Kuma cannot speak (though most characters can understand him), nor can he use his paws to easily manipulate objects.

Total: Abilities: 42 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 5 / Defenses: 10 (81)

-Since bears are not able to live extremely long lives, Kuma was forced to be written out of Tekken 3, which is far in the future of Tekken 2's setting. And so we have Kuma's "Generation Xerox" son, Kuma II, who received the same training from Heihachi, and takes up the same role. He's known for having the funniest endings of an Tekken character, often taking over the Mishima Zaibatsu as CEO, despite being A BEAR, frequently with other characters playing this totally straight. As a character who reappears in multiple games in minor roles, Kuma II is more powerful than his father.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi! Kuma!)

Post by Ares »

Jabroniville wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:25 am -Since bears are not able to live extremely long lives, Kuma was forced to be written out of Tekken 3, which is far in the future of Tekken 2's setting. And so we have Kuma's "Generation Xerox" son, Kuma II, who received the same training from Heihachi, and takes up the same role. He's known for having the funniest endings of an Tekken character, often taking over the Mishima Zaibatsu as CEO, despite being A BEAR, frequently with other characters playing this totally straight. As a character who reappears in multiple games in minor roles, Kuma II is more powerful than his father.
Heh, reminds me of the tale of Sir Bearington

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drkrash
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia Chang! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi!)

Post by drkrash »

Ares wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 10:39 pm Probably this old Penny Arcade comic.

Image
Yup. That's the one.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Bob Richards

Post by Jabroniville »

FuzzyBoots wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:43 pm
As a side note, there is some truth to bulking up. There's a fun video I watched involving an older small martial arts master trying to even budge a really chunky guy. A running two-foot drop kick made him take a small step back. That said, with bulk often comes lesser mobility and endurance (since you have to move more mass), so it's no guarantee of success, of course, and someone who has the same weight but in muscle mass is superior in many ways (although having excess body weight does carry some advantages once weapons are involved, because having an inch carved into fat is a lot safer than having an inch carved into muscles and the organs below, c.f. Roman gladiators).
Yeah, big, burly guys are actually rather tough to beat in real life, as their mass makes them hard to move, and all that fat is good at absorbing hits. I knew a couple of pretty tough, well-built dudes who said they were REALLY scared of coming across those barrel-shaped dudes who could eat shots to the body like nothing.

The notion of grappling and going to the ground in fights is interesting, because while the "Ground Game" became vastly important in MMA & sporting fights... in REAL LIFE, you should really never go to the ground. Because, of course, the guy you're fighting might have friends, and they basically have you at their mercy if you're wrestling their friend on the ground.

Also, in honor of cock-punches, here's the infamous UFC 4 bout's highlights, as Keith Hackney uses Joe Son's cock as a speed-bag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhHoeSc9CrE

To make this video ESPECIALLY glorious, Joe Son was actually a vicious rapist responsible and was imprisoned for TORTURE, which makes Keith Hackney my hero, and this 30-second clip of Son getting punched square in the cock a glorious exercise in pre-karmic revenge.
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Panda

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

PANDA
Role:
Fighting Bear, Training Partner, Pallete Swap (of Kuma)
First Appearance: Tekken 3
Total Appearances: Tekken 3-7, Tekken Tag Tournament 1-2, Street Fighter X Tekken
PL 8 (80)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 7 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE -3 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE -1

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+8)
Athletics 5 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 4 (+11)
Expertise (Martial Arts) 4 (+1)
Intimidation 8 (+7)
Perception 6 (+5)

Advantages:
Chokehold, Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Critical (Unarmed), Improved Defense, Improved Hold, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Prone Fighting, Startle

Powers:
"Ursine Senses" Senses 4 (Acute & Extended Scent, Low-Light Vision, Scent-Tracking) [4]
"Special Moves" Strength-Damage +2 (Inaccurate -1) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Special Moves +9 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +7 (DC 17), Parry +11 (DC 21), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +4

Complications:
Responsibility (Ling Xiaoyu)- Panda is the young girl's bodyguard and friend.

Total: Abilities: 38 / Skills: 30--15 / Advantages: 10 / Powers: 5 / Defenses: 12 (80)

-Panda is a Palette Swap of Kuma II (to the point where she's simply selected as a different color scheme), appearing in most of the games that also feature the brown bear. It's a pretty simple, neat idea- creating a very different visual dynamic for the same polygonal model, though later games gave her a more more distinct model. Assigned by Heihachi to guard the young Ling Xiaoyu (who had impressed and amused him when she boarded his boat and threatened him, trying to get him to build her an amusement park), Panda is a helpful aide to the girl.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi! Kuma!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Another note about chubsters in fights- it's acknowledged by a WIDE MARGIN that the most bad-ass man in the history of pro wrestling is Tonga Fifita, aka "Haku" in WWF and "Meng" in WCW. Never close to a "body guy", Fifita was dumpy for the majority of his career. Tales of his bad-ass-dom are typically wildly exaggerated, as is the norm for wrestlers (who are notorious for kayfabeing- or bullshitting- people on EVERYTHING, often in a way to make wrestlers as a whole look more bad-ass as a group), but there are legitimate police records of him biting off a guy's nose in a bar fight.

Similarly, Leon "Big Van Vader" White was notoriously stiff, strong and devastating, once proving so tough that he kept a match going after having his eyeball knocked out by Stan Hansen (yes he literally takes his mask off to push the eye back into its socket on-camera).

Another universally-respected bad-ass was the 400+-lb. John "Earthquake" Tenta. He was so strong and tough that former yokozuna Koji Kitao (billed at 6'7" 353, but probably shorter, as that was Tenta's billed height and he's noticeably taller) backed down after a lot of posturing in a fixed match that turned into a real struggle.

As Ares and others have said, the real disadvantage for these guys comes as the fights move on- smaller fighters can stay out of their range and tire them out, especially with careful defenses. But in barfight situations, it counts. Hell, UFC has weight classes for a reason- the days of skinny Gracies destroying monsters were over once those monsters received adequate training.
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Re: Bob Richards

Post by Scots Dragon »

I haven't played this series since the fourth game, due to switching to a different console line, but I played the hell out of Tekken 2 and Tekken 3 on the Playstation so this is 100% sheer nostalgia to me.
Jabroniville wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 4:22 am Yeah, big, burly guys are actually rather tough to beat in real life, as their mass makes them hard to move, and all that fat is good at absorbing hits. I knew a couple of pretty tough, well-built dudes who said they were REALLY scared of coming across those barrel-shaped dudes who could eat shots to the body like nothing.
Also, all of that actually being muscle often translates into a surprising amount of speed. They're often actually capable of being really, really fast, in the same way that an express train is fast. With about the same effects on anyone in their way.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Julia! Kazuya! Lucky Chloe! Lee! Heihachi! Kuma!)

Post by catsi563 »

There was one particular example for me, way back when before the UFC became as big as it is. they had a style based PPV where this smaller Karate style guy went up against this guy who had to be 2-3 times his weight and almost as tall as him, looked like a near comical mismatch right up until the big guy tried to close on the smaller fighter who side stepped him causing the big guy to trip and as he tried to get up the little guy threw a roundhouse kick that landed HARD right on the guys mush. knocked him out colder then old man winters buttcrack. Even got a shot of a tooth being kicked into the front row. fight barely lasted a minute.
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