Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Spectrum »

Is there a third set of Hall's in the DCU? I'm remembering a Hector Hall, the original Silver Scarab/Sandman that went on to become Doctor Fate... and married the second Fury?
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Hawk & Dove are one of the big Waterloos of comics. I mean I love the concept, but I don't think any writer was ever able to do them justice.
In general they are portrayed being in conflict on so many levels that it's astonishing they even consider to work together:
  • There is family conflict level, being a sibling rivalry or a relationship.
  • The conflicting methodologies.
  • The opposing ideologies.
In my eyes there are two major failures that completely fucked them up: first, most writers tend to portray either Hawk or Dove to be "right" and the two of them being in constant conflict, instead of a dynamic balance where one they constantly refer to the other when things go south. Second, several times we saw Hawk going ballistic without Dove (it was actually the starting point of the Kessels' series), the opposite isn't true. Every time Dove was alone (mostly Dawn Granger) he/she was apparently fine, which is a pretty big signal that the balance between the two isn't working.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Yeah. I used Hawk & Dove as NPCs in my Birds of Prey campaign, because between them I could espouse any viewpoint or strategy that made sense for heroes -- and if they agreed you were wrong, you were probably pretty wrong. Hawk comes straight at problems; Dove is indirect. Hawk is a fighter, Dove is a negotiator. Hawk would fly off the handle, and Dove would overthink everything and talk it to death. Hawk was a live-and-let-live anarchist, and Dove knew she could run your life better than you could.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jack of Spades »

Spectrum wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:22 pm Is there a third set of Hall's in the DCU? I'm remembering a Hector Hall, the original Silver Scarab/Sandman that went on to become Doctor Fate... and married the second Fury?
Hank & Don, and Carter & Shiera (Hector's parents).
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Ken »

Jack of Spades wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:09 pm
Spectrum wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:22 pm Is there a third set of Hall's in the DCU? I'm remembering a Hector Hall, the original Silver Scarab/Sandman that went on to become Doctor Fate... and married the second Fury?
Hank & Don, and Carter & Shiera (Hector's parents).
And then there was the alias that Katar and Shayera used... but that was wiped out by Hawkworld.
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Dove (Don Hall)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

DOVE I (Don Hall)
Created By:
Steve Ditko & Steve Skeates
First Appearance: Showcase #75 (June 1968)
Role: Bleeding-Heart Liberal, Peacenik, Speedster
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Hawk & Dove
PL 9 (145)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 6 (+12)
Athletics 5 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+11)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Bleeding-Heart Liberal) 5 (+8)
Insight 5 (+8)
Perception 4 (+7)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+8)
Treatment 4 (+7)

Advantages:
Daze (Persuasion), Defensive Attack, Defensive Throw, Evasion, Fascinate (Persuasion), Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Interpose, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 4, Redirect, Second Chance (Persuasion Attempts), Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Super-Speed"
Quickness 4 [4]
Speed 7 (250 mph) [7]
Regeneration 4 [4]
Senses 1 (Danger Sense) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Peace)
Relationship/Rivalry (Hank Hall, aka "Hawk")- Hawk & Dove were combative brothers. Don is a peace-loving liberal, whereas Hank is a pro-active, volatile conservative. They loved each other dearly, but they bickered constantly.
Normal Identity (Don Hall)- Without saying the word "Dove" and transforming, Don's stats are ST 1, STA 3, and AGI 3.
Responsibility (Avatar of Order)
Enemy (Kestrel)

Total: Abilities: 74 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 21 / Powers: 16 / Defenses: 14 (145)

-Dove was created with a somewhat noble, if flawed idea: a superhero who was a pacifist. Don preferred to talk his way out of fights, and use his agility to dodge criminals. Steve Ditko originally wrote him as kind of a weenie (co-creator Steve Skeates felt that Ditko didn't know what a "dove" personality really was, being an Objectivist loony who favored action-packed, moralistic justice), but subsequent writers failed to really capture the character either (despite being written as smarter than Hank), and he was summarily offed in the Crisis (saving a young child from a Shadow Demon), giving us a female Dove, who was for obvious reasons a lot more favoured as a pacifist (people accept that behavior much more from women. They accept powder-blue tights more on them, as well). The character's never made a comeback (even though Chick Dove has), and is pretty much done for good (he couldn't be resurrected during Blackest Night because he remained at peace, moreso than any other character). Lesson learned: Don't make your superheroes non-fighting pacifists.

-Though I love the discuss commentary inherent in having the nicest superhero in the world get dumped by his girlfriend for a LITERAL CAVEMAN. I dunno if that was their intent, but it’s hilarious.

-Funny note: For their Justice League Unlimited appearance, the Hall Brothers were portrayed by none other than Fred Savage & Jason Hervey, better known as the Arnold Brothers from the fantastic, nostalgic wistful series The Wonder Years. Of course, Fred played the asshole this time around, while asshole brother "Wayne" was the nerdier Dove. My roomate at the time didn't realize they were brothers, and assumed Hawk & Dove were actually a sneaky reference to a bickering gay couple. Maybe it's the powder-blue tights :). I dunno if the actors were busy or what, but Hawk & Dove never got another speaking role, instead just appearing in some background shots doing stuff.

-Dove has a few more options that Hawk in combat, being quicker and having more ways of attacking (Trip, Finesse, Disarm, etc.). His total Defense Bonus is pretty great, as he was adept at avoiding attacks, making him PL 8 offensively, PL 9 defensively. Don's got quite a few Advantages overall, since he was a good finesse fighter who was really hard to hit.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Dove (Don Hall)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:53 amDon is a peace-loving liberal, whereas Hank is a pro-active, volatile conservative.
Hey, new idea for a reboot in the 21st century... One peace-loving conservative, whereas the other is a pro-active, volatile liberal.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by catsi563 »

I think the reason I always preferred Dawn Grangers Dove over Dons was that they really made Dawn a much better hero, She was pacifistic but not a pushover. She truly balanced Hanks Hawk by no only being the peace maker of the pair but by also working with him as the counter balance, they did a much better job imo of finding the balance between aggressive action and peaceful reaction
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Dove (Dawn Granger)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image
Image

DOVE II (Dawn Granger)
Created By:
Barbara Kesel, Karl Kesel & Rob Liefeld
First Appearance: Hawk & Dove #1 (Oct. 1988)
Role: Bleeding-Heart Liberal, Peacenik, Speedster
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Hawk & Dove
PL 9 (148)
STRENGTH
5 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 6
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Acrobatics 6 (+12)
Athletics 5 (+10)
Close Combat (Unarmed) 1 (+11)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Bleeding-Heart Liberal) 5 (+8)
Insight 5 (+8)
Perception 4 (+7)
Persuasion 5 (+8)
Stealth 2 (+8)
Treatment 4 (+7)

Advantages:
Daze (Persuasion), Defensive Attack, Defensive Throw, Evasion, Fascinate (Persuasion), Fast Grab, Grab Finesse, Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Interpose, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 4, Redirect, Second Chance (Persuasion Attempts), Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Super-Speed"
Quickness 4 [4]
Regeneration 4 [4]
Senses 1 (Danger Sense) [1]

Fligth 6 (120 mph) (12) -- [13]
  • AE: Speed 7 (250 mph) (7)
Offense:
Unarmed +11 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +10

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +5, Fortitude +7, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Peace)
Relationship/Rivalry (Hank Hall, aka "Hawk")- Hawk & Dove bicker the same way Don & Hank did. She had a similary relationship with her estranged British sister Holly.
Normal Identity (Dawn Granger)- Without saying the word "Dove" and transforming, Dawn's stats are ST 1, STA 3, and AGI 3. Apparently she cannot transform unless she is in direct danger- if she were to mistakenly believe she was in danger, she would remain in Dawn form.
Responsibility (Avatar of Order)
Enemy (Kestrel)

Total: Abilities: 74 / Skills: 40--20 / Advantages: 21 / Powers: 22 / Defenses: 14 (148)

-Dawn Granger was given the "Dove" powers as soon as Don Hall died in the Crisis. She joined Hank "Hawk" Hall in the new Hawk and Dove book, which lasted for three years, ending in 1991. She was peaceful and caring, but was way more action-oriented than Don was, being given Super-Agility and things like that. So it fit better- instead of being a pure peacenik, she was more "Spider-Man Lite" and would still fight for what's right. Dawn was unfortunately killed only five years into her existence by the time-travelling villain Monarch, who was soon killed and replaced by a psychotic Hank.

-Dawn was resurrected in the pages of JSA by Geoff Johns, who had Extant (Hank's new form) bring her back, since he loved her and all, even though he was now psychotic. Dawn helped the JSA defeat Extant, and mourned his death and the story's end- she then disappeared from that book, and ended up in a side role on the Teen Titans book, teaming up with a new Hawk- her estranged sister, Holly. Holly would be VERY quickly killed in Blackest Night, which would also see the return of Hawk. The pair would work together once more, but Dawn's heart would go to the resurrected Boston "Deadman" Brand, who would break her heart by dying at the end of Brightest Day (a book about all the resurrected characters), saving her from Captain Boomerang II. After the failure of the New 52 Hawk & Dove, it remains to be seen if she'll get another push.

-Dawn is basically just like Don in stats, but can Fly as well. She fit right in with the Birds of Prey, so isn't overly-high in Power Level (Canary & Huntress were better in combat, for instance). During Blackest Night, she could use The White Light of Creation, basically a banishing Super-Blast (Blast Linked with Ranged Weaken Toughness- all Limited to Black Lantern Corps. Also there was an omnidirectional Burst version) of enormous level.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Ken »

catsi563 wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:37 amI think the reason I always preferred Dawn Grangers Dove over Dons was that they really made Dawn a much better hero, She was pacifistic but not a pushover. She truly balanced Hanks Hawk by no only being the peace maker of the pair but by also working with him as the counter balance, they did a much better job imo of finding the balance between aggressive action and peaceful reaction
Well, it helped that this iteration of Hawk and Dove were written by a pair of writers, who were recently married at the time, so it is likely that the interplay between the writers, and their having more than one view on the stories they were crafting and working together helped the writing.

As Jab described, the two Steves didn't agree on the brothers' characterisations. If the writer writes "Dove does ________" and the artist draws "Hawk doing ________" because he believes the writer has gotten the characters wrong, there is no way to fix that, if the editor won't step in. The original book was doomed from the start as the creative team was undercutting each other.
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Hawk (Holly Granger)

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

HAWK III (Holly Granger)
Created By:
Geoff Johns & Mike McKone
First Appearance: Teen Titans #3 (Nov. 2003)
Role: Angry Chick, Powerhouse
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, Hawk & Dove
PL 8 (108)
STRENGTH
8 STAMINA 8 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 2
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills:
Acrobatics 2 (+6)
Athletics 3 (+11)
Deception 2 (+5)
Expertise (Teen Runaway) 6 (+6)
Intimidation 5 (+6)
Perception 2 (+3)
Vehicles 2 (+4)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Daze (Intimidation), Diehard, Fast Grab, Fearless, Great Endurance, Improved Grab, Improved Hold, Ranged Attack 4, Seize Initiative, Startle, Takedown

Powers:
"Powerhouse"
Impervious Toughness 3 [3]
Leaping 1 (15 feet) [1]
Power Lifting 1 (12 tons) [1]
Regeneration 4 [4]
Senses 1 (Danger Sense) [1]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+8 Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +8, Fortitude +9, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Justice)
Relationship/Rivalry (Dawn Granger, aka "Dove")- Holly & Dawn are estranged sisters.
Normal Identity (Holly Granger)- Without saying the word "Hawk" and transforming, Hank's stats are ST 2, STA 3, and AGI 2.
Responsibility (Avatar of Chaos)

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 15 / Powers: 10 / Defenses: 8 (108)

-So when Dawn "Dove" Granger returned from the dead, she needed a new Hawk. And so Geoff Johns wrote one... inventing a Suddenly-Introduced Sibling for her in Holly Granger. Now, adding siblings (even estranged) to characters with 15+ years of continuity is a pretty lazy, half-assed way to force characters to be seen as important, and is notorious for a reason. I mean, wouldn't the Kesel Hawk & Dove series have at least MENTIONED Holly if she was supposed to be important? There's a reason people don't like this. What's worse is that Holly wasn't even INTENDED TO BE A MAJOR THING- she pops up mainly to "Join the Titans during One Year Later" (ie. we don't actually see them do anything with the team), hangs around on a quickie team made by Cyborg, and is then killed during Blackest Night, having her heart ripped out by Hank Hall's reanimated Black Lantern body. Holly's reanimated Black Lantern body is wiped out by Dawn's "White Light of Creation". This is basically it for her as a character, as another attempt at resurrecting her with Dawn's powers turns bad (she shows up as a Black Lantern before Deadman can put her to rest again). So this bad-ass fighter chick has basically never mattered to anything, and was replaced by Hawk inside of six years.

-Hawk III has pretty pathetic stats for a professional superhero, being more fit for the "Joto-era" Teen Titans than someone who should be tangling with Black Lanterns. I would almost put her lower, as she was barely alive for six years before she got aggressively written out by her own creator. But this fits someone who was never more than a backgrounder in the DC Universe.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Jack of Spades wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:04 pm Yeah. I used Hawk & Dove as NPCs in my Birds of Prey campaign, because between them I could espouse any viewpoint or strategy that made sense for heroes -- and if they agreed you were wrong, you were probably pretty wrong. Hawk comes straight at problems; Dove is indirect. Hawk is a fighter, Dove is a negotiator. Hawk would fly off the handle, and Dove would overthink everything and talk it to death. Hawk was a live-and-let-live anarchist, and Dove knew she could run your life better than you could.
That's interesting- where do the powers come from? I wasn't aware they were that strong or had a Healing-type power (I just used Regeneration).

A funny thing about Hawk & Dove to me is that they're given these permanent links to the Teen Titans... even though they were on the team for like SIX ISSUES- a shorter run than friggin' Bedlam had on X-Force, for example. So seeing them constantly mentioned as past members is always amusing, because I ain't never seen Domino or Siryn go on about missing poor Bedlam.

My only memory of either of them on the team was when Donna Troy put together her disastrous "Temporary Titans" group for a one-off. George Perez was off the book, and Wolfman was stuck with a lesser artist (well... EVERYONE is a lesser artist, but this one was particularly "meh"). The whole idea was that Donna had to scramble to find a crew to do something. And all she could find was Wally West (now The Flash, but reduced to Sonic Speed... which made him REALLY sub-par for some reason), Jason Todd as "Robin", Hank Hall and Speedy. She ended up deferring to Robin too much, just because she was used to having a "Robin" to lead the team (poor Jason had to tell her repeatedly that he was out of his league), and an aggressive, brutish Hank got the crap beaten out of him by an enraged Donna, who basically had to be dragged off of him. It was one of the few times we saw just HOW much stronger Donna was than most of the other Titans- she's normally so peaceful and prone to using her lasso that when she finally loser her temper, someone as strong as Hawk was basically squashed like a bug.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Jabroniville »

re: Aqualad:

I find it funny that we've seen the "solution" to the "Aquaman Problem" like four friggin' times, and it's always the same solution- make him as hot as humanly possible. Phil Jiminez turned Garth/Tempest into every gay man's wet dream (the CURLY HAIR- it's always the curly hair. Look at Element Lad's fandom!), the Young Justice cartoon threw in that black Aqualad, the Teen Titans cartoon used some long-haired exotic guy as Aqualad, the DC Cinematic Fustercluck threw in Mr. Fanservice himself as their Aquaman, and AMAZINGLY, nobody seems to complain that much. It's something they usually figured out for female characters quickly- Dove sucked as a young man, but as a sexy young WOMAN, suddenly fans took to the character more.

Generally, I've heard that Superfriends is blamed for the "Aquaman Sucks" thing, because before that, he was just a largely-unpopular, but still long-lasting, superhero (he went like two decades without a cover appearance, but got to show up in a Superman book as a regular feature). But Superfriends and its especially useless Aquaman, and the generally childish nature of the show, meant that TONS of people now saw him out there sucking.

Technically, neither Arthur nor Garth should "suck"- both are very strong, and not worse fighters than, say, Spider-Man. They're just very un-dynamic when on land, being reduced to being sub-tier powerhouses on teams with more established Strongman-types. Their specialties include swimming and talking to animals and stuff... which of course only comes into play underwater, which is why the writers found them annoying- they had to awkwardly shove that stuff in.

Phil Jiminez solved things by making Tempest more of an Elementalist. Other comics kind of add the "well, Aquaman's also a GOOD FIGHTER" thing, which makes it more clear that he's a force to be reckoned with.

But yeah, in the 1980s, it was clearly that Wolfman & Perez wanted to leave the old Titans behind- they only stuck with three of the Original Five, and dumped the third only a few years in. They were, like a lot of creative types, way more into perfecting THEIR new characters. And to their credits, it worked.

Only problem was, DC kept trying new stuff with the old guard, and Wolfman's stuff crapped out by the 1990s, so all of a sudden the Original Five are a big deal again. And then DC keeps trying to push THAT VERSION of the Titans, even though that version was never REMOTELY as popular as the Wolfman/Perez run, nor as respected... and yet a lot of "Titans Revisions" are like "Hey, here's the ORIGINAL FIVE back together!" even though very few people give a crap about that version. There's a reason every subsequent version that did well (the Johns team, the cartoon team) use a variation of the Wolfman/Perez era. Every time we get a "Year One" version of the original Titans, I just grunt and roll my eyes.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Jabroniville »

KorokoMystia wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:43 pm I believe the Wiki that I checked (this one) has movesets for each character (even the secret and unplayable ones!) listed on their page in the moveset sub-page, at least, though if there's any character's moves in specifc you need figuring out, I can probably check the game myself. I did also find someone that did gameplay with all the hidden/boss characters, even the elusive two characters that are exclusive to the PC Director's Cut version, which is very rare. Here is a link to the first Rise 2 video in that playlist. But yeah, a lot of the characters are simply variants of the main ones.
I was on the same Wiki, but some of the characters have missing move-sets- fittingly, the only two I've researched so far :). GameFaqs also has a PUNY description of the characters, simply listing move names for some and not all. So this might be a trickier set, at least as far as the Secret Characters go.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (DONNA TROY!!!! Terry Long! Tempest! Hawk & Dove!)

Post by Ken »

Jabroniville wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:52 am My only memory of either of them on the team was when Donna Troy put together her disastrous "Temporary Titans" group for a one-off. George Perez was off the book, and Wolfman was stuck with a lesser artist (well... EVERYONE is a lesser artist, but this one was particularly "meh"). The whole idea was that Donna had to scramble to find a crew to do something. And all she could find was Wally West (now The Flash, but reduced to Sonic Speed... which made him REALLY sub-par for some reason), Jason Todd as "Robin", Hank Hall and Speedy. She ended up deferring to Robin too much, just because she was used to having a "Robin" to lead the team (poor Jason had to tell her repeatedly that he was out of his league), and an aggressive, brutish Hank got the crap beaten out of him by an enraged Donna, who basically had to be dragged off of him. It was one of the few times we saw just HOW much stronger Donna was than most of the other Titans- she's normally so peaceful and prone to using her lasso that when she finally loser her temper, someone as strong as Hawk was basically squashed like a bug.
and Aqualad. Aqualad was part of the team Donna assembled. No respect. ;)
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