Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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Ares
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by Ares »

Worth noting that Jessica IS apparently a decent shot with a pistol, as she plugs Doom a few times when he's sneaking up behind Eddie.

As for the film itself, it's interesting in that it seems like it'd be some huge crossover event, but it's more of a "faux-over" in the way Wreck-It Ralph is. The longest crossover moments in the movie are the one scene where Donald and Daffy are playing piano against each other, the much shorter scene with Buggs and Mickey, and the final scene where everyone shows up for the ending song. Apart from those moments, we get brief cameos from Betty Boop and Yosemite Sam, and that's pretty much it. The rest of the movie focuses on the original characters, again, like Wreck-It Ralph.

Makes me wonder if companies get paid by the number of frames their character is on screen.

The movie itself is a lot of fun, basically being a pulp/noir detective film that just happens to exist in a world where Toons are real entities. Eddie is a classic, if not quite heroically proportioned, Noir Detective, while Jessica is the over-proportioned Noir femme-fatal. Though the movie happily plays with the formula and is overall much more light-hearted and fun, though still with some very emotional moments. That scene in Eddie's office when going through his pictures and then the slow pan through his life is AMAZING, telling a lot of story with no spoken dialogue, just the scenery and Bob's acting. The scene where Eddie goes to take another drink, stops, and then shoots the bottle is both moving and funny.

It also showed the writers actually know how to handle the forgotten art of allegory. Roger flat out states that "There's no Justice for Toons", showing that the Toons needed someone like Eddie sticking up for them. Toon Town itself is essentially this segregated place where 99.9% of them live, and its entire existence depended on someone having the deed to it. It's kind of a depressing state of affairs, but you can conversely see the need for such laws when guys like Doom show what happens when a Toon goes bad. They're effectively unkillable beings who can do minor reality warps given the right situation, and are easily capable of killing someone. It creates a kind of grey area where both sides have some validity.

Overall tho, the movie is incredibly entertaining, and it's a shame red tape prevents similar crossover type films from happening. If they ever made a movie that was basically a 90 minute version of the Donald/Daffy scene? Amazing.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by FuzzyBoots »

I've read the book the movie is based off of. It's interesting in its own right, albeit a bit different. One of the conceits of the series is that Toons are not unkillable, but can create a clone that lives for a day or so before dissolving that they use for stunt work. Eddie, on first meeting Jessica Rabbit, sees her double doing a helicopter stunt, if I recall correctly. The mystery? Roger Rabbit had hired Eddie to investigate a broken contract, and then he turns up dead, his word bubble (another thing a toon can do) indicates that he was killed to "Censor" him. Eddie meets Roger's double, who wants someone to solve his murder. Ultimately, it turns out that Roger got killed by a cartoon genie in the midst of his own murder of one of the producers who screwed him over. It's not a bad book, but it was very different.

It was followed by a sequel which, much like the second Forrest Gump novel, ignored most of the first book in favor of following the plotline of the more successful film.

Side note, I enjoyed watching *The Happytime Murders*, which is sort of a Muppet version of *Who Framed Roger Rabbit*, although goodness knows, the critics don't agree with me that the movie was any good. :)
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by greycrusader »

Jab, I didn't remember Bob Hoskin's career quite the way it was recounted, but yes-after a VERY promising earlier career (he starred in the critically acclaimed films The Long Good Friday and Mona Lisa, along with the Roger Rabbit mini-phenomenon-the Mario Brothers debacle KILLED his leading man push. KILLED IT. He never had the starring role in a major Hollywood (non-animated) film again, though he continued to get decent supporting parts in lower-profile fare. Part of it likely WAS his age when he peaked, as Hoskins was already 45 when Roger Rabbit came out, while the earlier movies were little known in the U.S; combined with his short, chunky frame and baldness, he couldn't recover in time from that Mario Bros rancidness.

Come to think of it, the movie didn't exactly help John Leguizamo's career any favors either; he was supposed to be "THE" Hispanic movie star of his era, but NONE of his stuff ever found a big audience. Hollywood Hype Machine fail, in other words.

All my best.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Ares wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:57 am Worth noting that Jessica IS apparently a decent shot with a pistol, as she plugs Doom a few times when he's sneaking up behind Eddie.

As for the film itself, it's interesting in that it seems like it'd be some huge crossover event, but it's more of a "faux-over" in the way Wreck-It Ralph is. The longest crossover moments in the movie are the one scene where Donald and Daffy are playing piano against each other, the much shorter scene with Buggs and Mickey, and the final scene where everyone shows up for the ending song. Apart from those moments, we get brief cameos from Betty Boop and Yosemite Sam, and that's pretty much it. The rest of the movie focuses on the original characters, again, like Wreck-It Ralph.

Makes me wonder if companies get paid by the number of frames their character is on screen.

The movie itself is a lot of fun, basically being a pulp/noir detective film that just happens to exist in a world where Toons are real entities. Eddie is a classic, if not quite heroically proportioned, Noir Detective, while Jessica is the over-proportioned Noir femme-fatal. Though the movie happily plays with the formula and is overall much more light-hearted and fun, though still with some very emotional moments. That scene in Eddie's office when going through his pictures and then the slow pan through his life is AMAZING, telling a lot of story with no spoken dialogue, just the scenery and Bob's acting. The scene where Eddie goes to take another drink, stops, and then shoots the bottle is both moving and funny.

It also showed the writers actually know how to handle the forgotten art of allegory. Roger flat out states that "There's no Justice for Toons", showing that the Toons needed someone like Eddie sticking up for them. Toon Town itself is essentially this segregated place where 99.9% of them live, and its entire existence depended on someone having the deed to it. It's kind of a depressing state of affairs, but you can conversely see the need for such laws when guys like Doom show what happens when a Toon goes bad. They're effectively unkillable beings who can do minor reality warps given the right situation, and are easily capable of killing someone. It creates a kind of grey area where both sides have some validity.

Overall tho, the movie is incredibly entertaining, and it's a shame red tape prevents similar crossover type films from happening. If they ever made a movie that was basically a 90 minute version of the Donald/Daffy scene? Amazing.
The issue is, "Crossover Fic" is pretty good "Fan Porn", but doesn't inherently make for a great story. It's honestly just fanwank a lot of the time, never mind the copywrite issues of telling stories using other people's intellectual property. Too many writers are just like "AW YEAH, NOW OPTIMUS PRIME AND IRON MAN ARE ON THE SAME TEAM AND IRON MAN IS NOW A TRANSFORMER!" without actually working on the real story, which absolutely requires a few Main Characters, which means you have to toss aside some of the big stars into more minor roles.

I think any screenwriter worth their salt knows that a "Crossover" movie like that needs a Wreck-It Ralph or an Eddie Valiant- original characters that are the centerpiece of the story and aren't beholden to other forms of fiction. Not just for copywrite reasons (though that's a huge part of it), but because... well, I don't think there's a real way to make a good Crossover Fic in the sense that "This is a legitimately good story". You can make it COOL or FUN (like... now I wanna see Iron Man make a Transformer, dammit), but to make it legitimately good, marketable and watchable, you need something like that.

Other examples: Fables is FanFic of fold stories, but mostly uses the famous characters as window dressing, invents its own Original Characters (the cubs, the North Wind... Boy Blue & King Cole are also similarly invented from nothing but simple rhymes), and then focuses on a small handful of notable people. And there's a difference between "Famous Fairytale Character" and "Sonic the Hedgehog" in terms of character use- you can basically invent personalities with fairy tales.

ABC's Once Upon A Time is another example- technically a FanFic using Official Disney Characters, but A) essentially reinvents EVERYONE (the Evil Queen is now a sympathetic, motherly villainess; Snow White is a bad-ass; Cruella is British and has super-powers; etc.) so that they're basically OCs with some similar traits, and B) bases it around a solitary Original Character (Emma).

I'm not saying it CAN'T be done, but I think it's a better use of the material to still base things around Ralph, Emma, Eddie, etc.- it allows the plot more freedom, allows people to focus on certain characters (seeing Sonic, etc., still feels cool, and they lend credibility to the "world", but it's not the focus), and isn't as fanwank-y.
Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Arkrite wrote: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:55 pm Interesting little details: In Eddie's office during a sweeping shot of the desk you will see a picture indicating that he, his brother and his father all worked at the Ringling Bros And Barnum & Bailey Circus. As clowns.
You also get a quick shot of a police photo which indicates him and his brother became cops at the same time as somebody captioned the shot: "New Clowns on the Beat".
If you look really close you'll see the red clown noses.

And, but the looks of it, the only cartoon related stuff you see in Eddie's office? Appears to be a Betty Boop doll.
Yep- that's where Eddie's song & dance routine (and associated Skills) comes from, I think.

I was really, REALLY impressed with the way the movie set all this stuff up earlier, too. A LOT of modern movies just yank stuff out of their ass in terms of powers & gadgets and whatever, and clumsier ones often get REALLY OBVIOUS with the "Chekov's Gun" plot-points (ie. "Use this, but only in THIS WAY, because that OTHER WAY results in _____" stuff where you know this is going to play in later). But in this one, you just see stuff introduced casually- the Weasels are repeatedly warned not to laugh themselves to death, so that it doesn't come as much of an ass-pull later when it really happens. And the cops f*cking around with all the Acme Props means that A) we know how they work, B) we see them before they're plot points, and C) we have a more casual "grounding" of the elements, so they're not mystical things. The cops just kind of joke around with the stuff and act like it's all funny.

Really, REALLY tight editing. Reminds me of how Star Wars was saved by George Lucas's wife going into the editing room and re-piecing the scenes together (thus establishing the "small stuff" with the Force early on).
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by Jabroniville »

greycrusader wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:01 am Jab, I didn't remember Bob Hoskin's career quite the way it was recounted, but yes-after a VERY promising earlier career (he starred in the critically acclaimed films The Long Good Friday and Mona Lisa, along with the Roger Rabbit mini-phenomenon-the Mario Brothers debacle KILLED his leading man push. KILLED IT. He never had the starring role in a major Hollywood (non-animated) film again, though he continued to get decent supporting parts in lower-profile fare. Part of it likely WAS his age when he peaked, as Hoskins was already 45 when Roger Rabbit came out, while the earlier movies were little known in the U.S; combined with his short, chunky frame and baldness, he couldn't recover in time from that Mario Bros rancidness.

Come to think of it, the movie didn't exactly help John Leguizamo's career any favors either; he was supposed to be "THE" Hispanic movie star of his era, but NONE of his stuff ever found a big audience. Hollywood Hype Machine fail, in other words.

All my best.
See, my issue is I've never seen nor heard of any of his earlier work, so I couldn't really talk much about it. I just remember him never being close to a household name.
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The Toon Patrol

Post by Jabroniville »

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THE TOON PATROL WEASELS
Played by:
David Lander (Smarty), Charles Fleischer (Greasy & Psycho), June Foray (Wheezy) & Fred Newman (Stupid)
Role: Idiotic Mooks
PL 4 (82)
STRENGTH
0 STAMINA 1 AGILITY 2
FIGHTING 3 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE -1 AWARENESS -1 PRESENCE 0

Skills:
Deception 2 (+2)
Expertise (Toons) 4 (+3)
Expertise (Law Enforcement) 2 (+1)
Perception 2 (+1)

Advantages:
Close Attack, Equipment 2 (Knife +1, Revolver +4), Ranged Attack 1

Powers:
"Manic Toon Physiology"
"Toon Spaz-Out"
Movement 2 (Permeate 2) (Flaws: Unreliable) (Quirks: Leaves A Recognizable Silhouette Behind) [1]
Speed 1 (4 mph) [1]

"You Can't Kill a Toon"
Regeneration 6 (Feats: Regrow Limbs) [7]
Immortality 14 (Flaws: Limited- Acetone/Turpentine/Benzene Can Kill Toons) [14]
Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]

"Through the Mail Slot/Slips Out of Cuffs" Insubstantial 1 (Feats: Selective) (Flaws: Limited to When It's Funny) [5]

"Three-Foot Weasel" Shrinking 4 (Feats: Innate) (Extras: Permanent +0) [9]
(-1 Strength & Speed, +2 Defenses, +4 Stealth, -2 Intimidation)

Offense:
Unarmed +4 (+0 Damage, DC 15)
Knife +4 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Revolver +4 (+4 Ranged Damage, DC 19)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +4 (DC 14), Parry +5 (DC 15), Toughness +1, Fortitude +2, Will +1

Complications:
Motivation (Mayhem)- Though the law enforcers of Judge Doom, the Weasels are more likely just in it to cause destruction and pain.
Weakness (Laughing Too Hard)- As a jittery, cackling bunch, the Weasels are prone to bouts of laughter. Too much of it can even kill them, odd as that sounds. The sight of someone in pain amuses them to no end, and kills four of the five.

Total: Abilities: 16 / Skills: 10--5 / Advantages: 4 / Powers: 34 / Defenses: 3 (82)

-Appearing like a gang of criminal-minded Seven Dwarfs, Smarty, Greasy, Psycho, Wheezy & Stupid are Judge Doom's henchmen, acting nothing like the lawmen they're supposed to be. Smarty is the boss and most stylish, Greasy is a stereotypical Puerto Rican in green, Wheezy is a smoker, Psycho is crazy, and Stupid has a beanie and is dumb. There were gonna be two more (Slimy & Flasher), but the animators dropped them to avoid a full-on Seven Dwarfs theme. The Toon Patrol is all pretty dumb, though Psycho & Stupid are even DUMBER (Stupid uses a Baseball Bat with a nail in it as a weapon, getting +2 damage with it). At PL 4, they're more dangerous than most Toons by virtue of their weaponry- Eddie can deal with them pretty quickly on his own (he's PL 4 unarmed) if not for the fact that a couple of them have guns.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:13 am
greycrusader wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:01 am Jab, I didn't remember Bob Hoskin's career quite the way it was recounted, but yes-after a VERY promising earlier career (he starred in the critically acclaimed films The Long Good Friday and Mona Lisa, along with the Roger Rabbit mini-phenomenon-the Mario Brothers debacle KILLED his leading man push. KILLED IT. He never had the starring role in a major Hollywood (non-animated) film again, though he continued to get decent supporting parts in lower-profile fare. Part of it likely WAS his age when he peaked, as Hoskins was already 45 when Roger Rabbit came out, while the earlier movies were little known in the U.S; combined with his short, chunky frame and baldness, he couldn't recover in time from that Mario Bros rancidness.

Come to think of it, the movie didn't exactly help John Leguizamo's career any favors either; he was supposed to be "THE" Hispanic movie star of his era, but NONE of his stuff ever found a big audience. Hollywood Hype Machine fail, in other words.

All my best.
See, my issue is I've never seen nor heard of any of his earlier work, so I couldn't really talk much about it. I just remember him never being close to a household name.
As far as I can tell after the trainwreck that was Super Mario Hoskins went to work for TV, in his late years he worked for RAI (the national public broadcasting company of Italy) playing several roles in their bio-fictions, most notably Pope John XXIII and Mussolini.
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Re: Jessica Rabbit

Post by Sidious »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:25 am Image
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JESSICA RABBIT

HELLOOOOO, Nurse!!!
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Re: Jessica Rabbit

Post by Shock »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:25 am Image
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Jabroniville
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Judge Doom

Post by Jabroniville »

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"Remember ME, Eddie!? When I KILLED your BROTHER!?! And I TALKED... JUST... LIKE... THIS!!!!"

JUDGE DOOM
Played by:
Christopher Lloyd
Role: Nightmare Fuel Incarnate, Greedy Judge
PL 8 (165)
STRENGTH
4 STAMINA 5 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills:
Athletics 4 (+7)
Deception 5 (+8)
Expertise (Law) 7 (+10)
Expertise (Science) 5 (+8)
Expertise (City Planning) 6 (+9)
Insight 4 (+7)
Intimidation 11 (+14)
Investigation 3 (+6)
Perception 4 (+7)
Stealth 3 (+7)

Advantages:
All-Out Attack, Fast Grab, Equipment (Stick +1), Improved Hold, Ranged Attack 2, Startle, Ultimate Intimidation Skill (I mean, JESUS CHRIST)

Powers:
"Manic Toon Physiology"
"Toon Spaz-Out"
Movement 2 (Permeate 2) (Flaws: Unreliable) (Quirks: Leaves A Recognizable Silhouette Behind) [1]
Speed 2 (8 mph) [2]
"Spring-Heeled Jack Move" Leaping 2 (30 feet) [2]

"Multi-Tool Hand" Strength-Damage +3 (Feats: Reach 2) (Extras: Multiattack 7) [12]

"You Can't Kill a Toon"
Regeneration 6 (Feats: Regrow Limbs) [7]
Immortality 14 (Flaws: Limited- Acetone/Turpentine/Benzene Can Kill Toons) [14]
Immunity 11 (Aging, Life Support) [11]

"Through the Mail Slot/Slips Out of Cuffs" Insubstantial 1 (Feats: Selective) (Flaws: Limited to When It's Funny) [5]

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Stick +8 (+5 Damage, DC 19)
Buzzsaw +8 (+7 Damage, DC 22)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +5, Fortitude +6, Will +7

Complications:
Motivation (Greed)- Though utterly evil, Judge Doom is just in things for money, robbing banks and wanting to build a Freeway, no matter WHO gets rubbed out along the way.
Responsibility (For the Evulz)- Doom is greedy, but also does things just to be nasty. He killed Teddy Valiant, committed several other deliberate murders for his Freeway, framed an innocent Rabbit, and worst of all, gave children everywhere nightmares by murdering a poor innocent Sentient Shoe in his "Dip" JUST TO SHOW PEOPLE HE COULD DO IT. The look on the thing's face as it whimpered for mercy... *shudder*

Total: Abilities: 68 / Skills: 52--26 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 54 / Defenses: 9 (165)

-Geez, Christopher Lloyd was scary ENOUGH as the un-blinking, angry, threatening Judge Doom, but that transformation? Getting squashed flat fails to kill him, and it's revealed that he was a TOON all along, popping his false eyes out, revealing RED SWIRLING EYES on Lloyd's masked visage, speaking in a voice that comes directly from Satan's own worst nightmare. I saw this as a kid, and was like "Holy HELL", but thank goodness I was probably 12 or so- seeing it as a young boy would have probably frightened me the way watching Bakshi's Lord of the Rings did as a lad, but even WORSE.

-Doom is your classic great villain, too- frightening, utterly memorable, vicious and evil for the sake of evil- he wants to demolish Toontown just to make a profit with this newfangled "Freeway" idea. He even buys up the local Tram company just so more people will be forced to drive cars along it (this is based off of a real thing- car manufacturers bought out and demolished many public transit systems in order to force people to drive- I'm almost certain this is still a thing in major cities that have poor public transit- Edmonton has a TON of problems nowadays because we had 30+ years of anti-transit people in office).

-Lloyd did an amazing job here, but so did the costumers and directors. He was told to never blink on camera, giving him an inhuman demeanor, which is added to by his stiff body language. His cloak seems to flap in the wind when nothing else in the scene does. His skin has a waxy pallor, resembling a corpse. His smile always seems WAY too forced- a combination of sadistic glee and an inability to show genuine affection. And when he finally does his big reveal later, we see the entire veneer of civilization slough off of him, turning him into the very incarnation of Nightmare Fuel.

-Doom's a good liar, a great fighter (he appears little more dangerous than Eddie Valiant at first, but once he starts pulling out SUMMONED WEAPONS, he's way out of Eddie's league), and about the scariest bastard who ever lived. Add all that to a Toon's invulnerability, and this guy could EASILY be upgraded into a super-hero-level threat. His only weakness is of course the one HE INVENTED HIMSELF.

About the Performer: Lloyd was an unexpected big star of the '80s, as he was an odd-looking older dude, but the Back to the Future films were REALLY BIG, capping off his debut in stuff like One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest (where he looks so young you barely recognize him) and a much-beloved role on Taxi. Playing Judge Doom only helped his career, as that was a monster smash as well. He became someone known for this pair of roles, and wasn't in that many more huge things, but largely kept working during the '90s, usually playing Quirky Old Dudes, like Uncle Fester in the Addams Family movies (another big pair of hits) or the bad guy in Dennis the Menace. A lot of kids stuff- The Pagemaster, Anastasia (as the memorable Rasputin), etc. He's actually kept working into his late seventies, but work has trickled to minor projects and roles for the most part, as you'd expect. Not bad for a guy whose career peaked in his fifties.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Great Mouse Detective! Ratigan! Who Framed Roger Rabbit!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

oooooh Jessica. rrrrow.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Ratigan! Roger Rabbit! Jessica Rabbit! Judge Doom!)

Post by HalloweenJack »

also it's crazy (ha!) how many notable character actors were in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

I mean you have a group therapy with the Joker, the Penguin, Judge Doom, and friggin' Chucky not to mention a few others like the Subway Ghost
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Ratigan! Roger Rabbit! Jessica Rabbit! Judge Doom!)

Post by Shock »

Judge Dredd vs Judge Doom (in Toon Town) would be one of the best crossovers ever
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The Little Mermaid

Post by Jabroniville »

And now... the official beginning of the Renaissance.
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