Jab’s Builds! (Beaker! Sam Eagle! Miss Piggy! The Swedish Chef!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
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drkrash
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Poison! Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat!)

Post by drkrash »

Jabroniville wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:29 am Oh yeah, the Alpha series made generic guys like Gen & Adon cool. I'd love to see them try SOMETHING with Mike & Joe. Or even Retsu! Seeing Eagle in full "Freddie Mercury" mode would be a blast, as well.

Saturday Night Slam Masters had some goofs, but Jumbo would be decent (SF is lacking Big Fat Guys). El Stingray is a better luchadore than El Fuerte, and Scorpion was just bad-ass.
Now that I think about it, Eagle did get a shot, didn't he? In one of the crossover games?

SF4 had a big fat guy.

I have never played Slam Masters, but I've read that it's really good, especially for people used to more conventional fighting games.
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Jabroniville
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MC2

Post by Jabroniville »

MC2:
-Mayday is the tough, sporty daughter of Spider-Man (now a semi-crippled Police Detective) and Mary Jane, living in a world in which Aunt May stayed dead- the MC2 Universe, which has one of those "Doom Patrol Fandoms". All I know is that ten freaking years of requests, "This is not a request, but have you ever considered building MC2?" requests, and jokes about building it anyways have made me despise the MC2 universe, and consider myself one of its biggest detractors :p. Plus, it's both impossible (the characters have very little bio information out there and I have no access to the books) and uninteresting ("slightly modified versions of established characters! Yay!"). So suck it, MC2 universe.
-Truth be told, I don't know QUITE how many "Have you ever considered building MC2?" requests I've had over the years. For all I know, it was twice and I just exaggerated it due to annoyance. But I was planning on never statting up the thing, but then I randomly looked through the back-issue stuff at the nearby Used Bookstore, and discovered a pile of most of the A-Next series- an "Avengers in the Future" book. Figuring that it looked interesting enough and it only cost about seven bucks or something, I picked up the issues and decided to placate poor, desperate Spectrum, who'd always go on about MC2 for whatever reason :).

A-NEXT:
-Comics like this are really why the term "mediocre" exists. It's not bad. Nothing in it bothers me or is offensive to my eyes of brain. But it's not GOOD, either. It's just... a bunch of STUFF that happens. All of the conflicts seem like they're ABOUT to reach some heavy point, but never do. Everything is exceptionally bland and uninteresting- it reminds me of Mark Gruenwald's Quasar, which suffered from the same kind of thing- a book that's more of a dry, encyclopedic description of stuff that happens. Characters give exposition about what things are like in the future, we see snippets of some people (Jubilee leads... *ugh*... the "X-People", while Speedball is a large, muscular former Avenger).

The dialogue is rather... "simple" in a way. Tom DeFalco's writing is odd in that it comes off as very dated, like it's a relic of the early 1970s or something- not as bombastic as Stan Lee's stuff, or even Roy Thomas's... but people speak rather plainly, but with big, obvious statements. The thing is so "New Reader-Friendly" that everyone speaks at least half their dialogue in exposition, and start each issue saying each other's names so there's no confusion. It's very "Silver Age". It's not really an INSULT to say that... but it comes off weird- this is a late '90s book that reads like something 20 years older. It actually reads like it's intended for younger children. Which, given how the MC-2 'verse was... is actually probably BENEFICIAL. This is back when Marvel was still pretending that it could appeal to children.

My main issue is with the characters- most of them are just not that interesting. Kevin Masterson (Thunderstrike) is a bit plain and dull as a character. He wants to keep his dad's legacy alive, but kind of just walks through life like it's a very casual thing- no real effort put into it. He's a bit too "normal"- just some guy with a college career, with no real passion for that OR his heroics. Stinger (Cassie Lang) is similarly dull as dishwater- just some generic lady hero, though sort of the team's leader. Mainframe is mysterious and a bit of a dick, which keeps things a bit interesting. J2 is fittingly immature, and it's interesting how he's SO young that it causes friction with the rest of the team. But then halfway through the series, the book suddenly adds on four new characters, three of whom are among the most boring characters in history, with barely a single character trait between them.

But like I said... everything feels scaled-back, as if the creative team (Tom DeFalco & Ron Frenz) were just firing on a single cylinder, instead of all of them. The team meets up, casually decices to stay together, then just starts going on boring away missions that end up revealing one legacy character or another, but doesn't focus on any of them enough for it to matter.

The Story:
The book starts off with Thunderstrike (Kevin Masterson- who was then the young son of the recently-dead second Thor), Stinger (Cassandra Lang- who was then a young child and supporting character for Ant-Man), J-2 (new son of the Juggernaut), Mainframe (a mysterious armored guy) and the adult Jolt, Speedball and Jubilee. The latter three do the "leave by the second issue" thing, and the remainder decide to stay on as The Avengers in a new time.

Subsequently, the four heroes travel around doing stuff- Bill Foster's son John becomes "Earth Sentry", gaining Captain Marvel-like powers. Doc Magus, the new Sorcerer Supreme, has the team fight the reformed Defenders. The Black Panther's son, the Coal Tiger (named for an early possible name for T'Challa), also shows up. Suddenly, four NEW members arrive, all bearing similarities to the "Cap's Kooky Quartet" era of the team- American Dream (a lady Captain America), Freebooter (a Swordsman-lookalike), Crimson Curse (albinistic Scarlet Witch-type) and Bluestreak (a fame-crazy speedster).

Doctor Doom appears, but is revealed to be Kristoff Vernard, who has a peaceful reunion with Cassie (during this time, he & Cassie were sorta-love-interest/childhood friends in the Fantastic Four book. Eventually, we discover the true nature of Mainframe (who'd been giving some Doom-like hints), and find out what happened to the original Avengers- they were lost in battle in another dimension. They wind up in an alternate Earth where the Red Skull won WWII and was replaced by his student, Doctor Doom, and Thunderstrike decides to stay behind to hang out with his father (who's alive in this world). The remaining Avengers are attacked by a group of villains including the children of Hank & Janet Pym, while many of the allies they've made over the course of the series (Coal Tiger, Earth Sentry, Argo, Blacklight) help them pull out a win.

The series is cancelled with A-Next #12, with a blunt confession from DeFalco that "the book just isn't selling the number of issues required for all the effort and money we put into it". Like most of the MC2 line, it didn't do that well in sales, but UNLIKE Spider-Girl (the line's signature title), it never got the letter-writing campaigns or the credibility with young female audiences to pull it out of the fire.

The characters have largely vanished since then, but a five-issue Limited Series came out in late 2006, adding a few new members to the team.

Characters:
Stinger
Thunderstrike II
J2
Mainframe
The Crimson Curse
American Dream
The Freebooter
Bluestreak

Other MC2 Characters:
Ladyhawk
Raptor
The Buzz
Blacklight
Wild Thing
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Scots Dragon
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Poison! Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat!)

Post by Scots Dragon »

I am an unabashed fan of Spider-Girl and will defend her to the death. The rest of the MC2 universe is okay, but I never got into reading any of the stuff outside of Spider-Girl's own series.
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Jabroniville
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Poison! Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat!)

Post by Jabroniville »

The Un-Stattables:
* Too little info is really available for these guys.

COAL TIGER (T'Chaka):
-The son of the Black Panther, Coal Tiger is revealed to be a shapeshifter who takes a humanoid Panther form that has a cartoonishly-huge chin. He helps the Avengers against the racist Soldiers of the Serpent (similar to the Sons of the Serpent). He declines an invitation to join the team, but returns for the final issue, which declares him a new member. His name comes from one of a few potential names Stan & Jack were considering for their new, African hero.
ENERGIZER (Kate Power):
-The adult Kate Power, formerly of Power Pack, joins the team in the 2006 series.
THENA:
-The daughter of Thor, who comes to Earth in search of Kevin Masterson. She disliked J2 immensely after breaking her hammer on his helmet, but soon developed a crush on him after he saved her.
WARP:
-A teleporting thief who defects to the Avengers after being hired by Sylene (the daughter of Loki) and Ulik to turn Earth into a new version of Asgard.
ARGO THE MIGHTY:
-The son of Hercules.
SABRECLAW:
-The son of Logan, and half-brother to Wild Thing. Claws & Healing Factor, as usual with this crowd.
EARTH SENTRY:
-Bill Foster's son John, now gaining Kree powers like the old Captain Marvel.
WARP:
-A teleporting thief who defects to the Avengers after being hired by Sylene (the daughter of Loki) and Ulik to turn Earth into a new version of Asgard.
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Stinger

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

STINGER IV (Casssandra Lang)
Created By:
David Michelinie & John Byrne
First Appearance: Marvel Premiere #47 (April 1979)
Role: Team Leader
PL 9 (115)
STRENGTH
2/4 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 8/10 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 6 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 3

Skills: 
Aerobatics 4 (+8)
Deception 3 (+6)
Expertise (Science) 4 (+10)
Insight 2 (+5)
Perception 3 (+6)
Stealth 0 (+4, +20 Small Size)
Ranged Combat (Stings) 2 (+10)
Technology 4 (+10)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Evasion, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 4, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
"Pym Particles Within Stinger Costume" (Flaws: Removable) [63]
"Small Size"
Shrinking 16 (+8 Dodge/Parry, +16 Stealth, -8 Intimidation) (Extras: Normal Strength) (48)
"Higher Density" Enhanced Strength 2 (Flaws: Limited to Small Size) (2)
"Tiny Sized Fighting" Enhanced Advantages 2: Close Attack 2 (Flaws: Limited to Smaller Sizes) (2)
"Wasp Wings" Flight 5 (60 mph) (Flaws: Winged) (5)

"Stinger Darts" Affliction 6 (Fort; Dazed/Stunned/Incapacitated) (Extras: Ranged, Multiattack) (18) -- (19)
  • AE: "Wasp Stings" Blast 8 (Feats: Split) (17)
Comprehend 2 (Speak to & Understand Animals) (Flaws: Limited to Insects) (2)
-- (78 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +8 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Tiny Sized Fighting +10 (+4 Damage, DC 19)
Wasp Stings +10 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Stinger Darts +10 (+6 Ranged Affliction, DC 16)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +8 (DC 18), Parry +8 (DC 18), Toughness +3, Fortitude +4, Will +6
"Small Size" Dodge +15 (DC 25), Parry +15 (DC 25), Toughness +3, Fortitude +4, Will +6

Complications:
Rivalry (Mainframe)- Stinger doesn't get along with Mainframe, believing him to be too bossy, mysterious and secretive.
Relationship (Scott Lang- Father)- Though Cassandra is an adult, Scott still babies his "Cassie", embarrassing her frequently.

Total: Abilities: 66 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 8 / Powers: 63 / Defenses: 8 (156)

-When A-Next came out, Cassie Lang was a very young girl, and the daughter of a guy who was then just a supporting character on the Fantastic Four book- the MC2-verse upgraded her to the adult leader-ish person of the new Avengers, and gave her the powers of the Wasp and some genius of her own. Her main issues were with mistrusting Mainframe, and being annoyed by her father's doting on her, but she was altogether kinda bland. Since the book came out, the mainstream Cassie became a size-shifting heroine in her own right, but becoming the "Giant Jailbait" (Eric O'Grady's term, not mine), Stature.

-Cassie is basically a smarter, PL 9 version of The Wasp at this point.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Sun Apr 16, 2023 7:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Woodclaw »

I was and still am a big fan of the MC2, although I have to admit that most of the stories felt half-baked. There were good ideas (although many were way too linked to a specific moment in the Marvel continuity) and I just love to see heroes aging. Unfortunately Jab hit it on the head saying that the biggest issue was that the creative team -- a pretty damn capable one at that -- seemed to be working at half skill. What Istill think was inexcusable was putting the now experienced heroes (Jolt, Speedball and Jubes) on the bus on issue #2. I know that Marvel was never able to do a good legacy hero until recently (Spider-Girl being the only exception), but come on.

I admit that when they introduce Cassie as Stature in Young Avengers I was kind of disappointed because I actually liked her as Stinger -- even if she was kind of meh -- but I got over it.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by M4C8 »

Woodclaw wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:36 pm I was and still am a big fan of the MC2, although I have to admit that most of the stories felt half-baked. There were good ideas (although many were way too linked to a specific moment in the Marvel continuity) and I just love to see heroes aging. Unfortunately Jab hit it on the head saying that the biggest issue was that the creative team -- a pretty damn capable one at that -- seemed to be working at half skill. What Istill think was inexcusable was putting the now experienced heroes (Jolt, Speedball and Jubes) on the bus on issue #2. I know that Marvel was never able to do a good legacy hero until recently (Spider-Girl being the only exception), but come on.

I admit that when they introduce Cassie as Stature in Young Avengers I was kind of disappointed because I actually liked her as Stinger -- even if she was kind of meh -- but I got over it.
She appeared as Stinger in 616 recently, in her dad's book.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'
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Bluestreak

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

BLUESTREAK (Blue Kelso)
Created By:
Tom DeFalco & Brent Anderson
First Appearance: A-Next #4 (1999)
Role: Speedster, Fame Whore
PL 8 (115)
STRENGTH
2 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 4
INTELLIGENCE 0 AWARENESS 1 PRESENCE 1

Skills: 
Athletics 10 (+12)
Perception 4 (+4)

Advantages:
Accurate Attack, Evasion, Move-By Action, Ranged Attack 1, Uncanny Dodge

Powers:
Speed 9 (1,000 mph) [9]
Quickness 8 [8]

"Super-Speed Feats"
"Wall & Water Run" Movement 2 (Wall-Crawling, Water-Walking) (Flaws: Limited to While Running) [2]
Immunity 1 (Friction Heat) [1]
"Punch Everyone in Range" Strength-Damage +3 (Extras: Area- 30ft. Burst 5, Selective 5) (13) -- [14]
  • AE: "Rapid-Punches" Strength-Damage +3 (Extras: Multiattack 5) (8)
Offense:
Unarmed +5 (+11 Damage, DC 26)
Bullets & Missiles +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +13 (DC 23), Parry +13 (DC 23), Toughness +3, Fortitude +4, Will +4

Complications:
Motivation (Attention)- Bluestreak wishes to be famous, and quit the X-People for not being "flashy enough" for her.

Total: Abilities: 56 / Skills: 14--7 / Advantages: 5 / Powers: 34 / Defenses: 13 (115)

-Bluestreak comes off like one of those characters that should have spent a bit more time in the planning stages. Introduced to the Avengers along with American Dream, Crimson Curse & Freebooter, she has the most one-dimensional personality I've ever seen in a recurring character- she's just a Fame Whore, out to get noticed. Which makes it INSANE that Jarvis was so interested in putting her on the Avengers- a team she had no business joining. She's cocky and impulsive, ignoring orders, and had a crush on the oblivious J2.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Jabroniville »

Scots & Woodclaw reminded me of something that I'd thought of at work, but forgot to type out once I got home (don't you hate it when that happens?). I was thinking about the popularity of Spider-Girl (Doom Patrol Fandom that it has; it had to be saved from cancellation by write-in campaigns numerous times), compared to the relative lack of success of the rest of he line, and had a theory: Since it's the same creative team (DeFalco & Frenz), it's likely that Spider-Girl was the "A-List" book, while all of the successive books were just lower-end. I mean, I'm sure they TRIED, but given that the line had a focal point in May Parker, they probably wisely put MOST of their effort into that one- keeping it afloat was more important than working on any other book. This meant that if they had a great idea for a Legacy Character, or a top-tier villain... it was gonna go to Spider-Girl, while A-Next had to make do with "kinda like Scarlet Witch; is Agatha Harkness's kid" Legacies.

You can kind of see this energy in A-Next (which, I must reiterate, is the only MC2 book I've ever read; I know I read the What If? that debuted Mayday, though), as half-formed ideas make their way through without having proper planning. Like they wanted to make sure that the previous generation of teens were the top-tier heroes in the future (Jubilee, Speedball, etc.), but didn't really have major IDEAS for them, so threw them out as backgrounders. Almost like they didn't want to "waste" a good idea on their second-tier book, just in case they wanted to use it later.
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Freebooter

Post by Jabroniville »

Image

FREEBOOTER (Brandon Cross)
Created By:
Tom DeFalco & Brent Anderson
First Appearance: A-Next #4 (1999)
Role: Legacy Hero
PL 8 (109)
STRENGTH
3 STAMINA 4 AGILITY 5
FIGHTING 12 DEXTERITY 5
INTELLIGENCE 2 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Acrobatics 8 (+13)
Athletics 9 (+12)
Deception 3 (+5)
Expertise (Streetwise) 2 (+4)
Insight 2 (+4)
Perception 3 (+5)
Stealth 1 (+6)

Advantages:
Agile Feint, Defensive Attack, Equipment 1 (Staff), Evasion, Fast Grab, Improved Critical (Staff), Improved Defenses, Quick Draw, Ranged Attack 4, Takedown 2

Offense:
Unarmed +12 (+3 Damage, DC 18)
Bo Staff +11 (+5 Damage, DC 20)
Initiative +5

Defenses:
Dodge +12 (DC 22), Parry +12 (DC 22), Toughness +4, Fortitude +5, Will +5

Complications:
Responsibility (Ladies Man)

Total: Abilities: 70 / Skills: 28--14 / Advantages: 14 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 11 (109)

-Freebooter joins the A-Next team along with the rest of the "Dream Team", and manages to stand out the least of the entire group. Bluestreak may be a one-note Fame Whore, but at least she HAS a note- this guys is just a purple-clad Swordsman-lookalike who uses a staff. He hit on Stinger for a bit, I suppose, but that went nowhere. When Crimson Curse was killed, he became a lot more withdrawn.
Last edited by Jabroniville on Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by M4C8 »

Looking back at it, the MC2 line was mostly world building so the primary character (Spider-Girl) could interact with other heroes. Saying that, it's one of the few alternate realities that I actually liked and wouldn't mind seeing more of.
'A shared universe, like any fictional construct, hinges on suspension of disbelief. When continuity is tossed away, it tatters the construct. Undermines it'
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Woodclaw »

M4C8 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:10 pm Looking back at it, the MC2 line was mostly world building so the primary character (Spider-Girl) could interact with other heroes. Saying that, it's one of the few alternate realities that I actually liked and wouldn't mind seeing more of.
I think you got it right, still I believe that there was potential because allowing heroes and villains to grow old and having a new generation stepping up is one of those things that, I believe, many authors want to do, but many publishers don't.
I think that the sweetest deal right now would be to have a MC2 style universe, but built around the current generation of new heroes (Kate Bishop, Cassie Lang, Eliah Bradley, Kamala Khan) with the mid-range characters (Kitty Pride, Jubilee) as leader/mentors. The really old characters will pretty much be legends at this point.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Scots Dragon »

Woodclaw wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:11 pm
M4C8 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:10 pm Looking back at it, the MC2 line was mostly world building so the primary character (Spider-Girl) could interact with other heroes. Saying that, it's one of the few alternate realities that I actually liked and wouldn't mind seeing more of.
I think you got it right, still I believe that there was potential because allowing heroes and villains to grow old and having a new generation stepping up is one of those things that, I believe, many authors want to do, but many publishers don't.
I think that the sweetest deal right now would be to have a MC2 style universe, but built around the current generation of new heroes (Kate Bishop, Cassie Lang, Eliah Bradley, Kamala Khan) with the mid-range characters (Kitty Pride, Jubilee) as leader/mentors. The really old characters will pretty much be legends at this point.
I'd also like to see something like that explored over at DC Comics, similar to John Byrne's Generations or Kingdom Come, though I suppose we do have Batman Beyond.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Woodclaw »

Scots Dragon wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:52 pm
Woodclaw wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:11 pm
M4C8 wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:10 pm Looking back at it, the MC2 line was mostly world building so the primary character (Spider-Girl) could interact with other heroes. Saying that, it's one of the few alternate realities that I actually liked and wouldn't mind seeing more of.
I think you got it right, still I believe that there was potential because allowing heroes and villains to grow old and having a new generation stepping up is one of those things that, I believe, many authors want to do, but many publishers don't.
I think that the sweetest deal right now would be to have a MC2 style universe, but built around the current generation of new heroes (Kate Bishop, Cassie Lang, Eliah Bradley, Kamala Khan) with the mid-range characters (Kitty Pride, Jubilee) as leader/mentors. The really old characters will pretty much be legends at this point.
I'd also like to see something like that explored over at DC Comics, similar to John Byrne's Generations or Kingdom Come, though I suppose we do have Batman Beyond.
There's one thing, as far as I'm concerned the DC comics has been better than Marvel at setting up legacy characters (starting with the various Robins) for a long time. On the other hand, Marvel was usually better at team books. Neither of these is an absolute, but just a feeling I got from reading them, which was why the MC2 and Young Avengers were such big deals for me.
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Re: Jab's Builds! (Hugo! Abigail! Ed! Kolin! Menat! MC2-Verse!)

Post by Scots Dragon »

Woodclaw wrote: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:42 pm There's one thing, as far as I'm concerned the DC comics has been better than Marvel at setting up legacy characters (starting with the various Robins) for a long time. On the other hand, Marvel was usually better at team books. Neither of these is an absolute, but just a feeling I got from reading them, which was why the MC2 and Young Avengers were such big deals for me.
I'm tempted to suggest that it actually kinda started with the Flash, since the second Robin didn't turn up until the eighties, but Jay Garrick and Barry Allen were having cross-universal adventures together since the sixties. There was also the Green Lantern with Hal Jordan having Guy Gardner and John Stewart as potential replacements, as well as he himself being the Silver Age replacement for Alan Scott. And not long after Jason Todd turned up, that was eclipsed by Wally West taking over for Barry Allen.
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