Jab’s Builds! (Roxy Rocket! Batgirl! Ra's al-Ghul! Batman Beyond!)

Where in all of your character write ups will go.
Ken
Posts: 2235
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:40 pm
Location: DeKamore, Madiganistan

Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay!)

Post by Ken » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:48 am

On the subject of cavemen...

In the 1960s, what we knew of our pre-historic ancestors was minimal. So, Haney was just making shit up when he created Gnarrk.

In the 1980s, we'd learned enough that people knew the pop-culture version of cavemen from the prior few decades was rubbish. But there wasn't that much more known that could be used to make Gnarrk realistic either.

While I haven't read a mainstream Titans comic since Teen Titans vol. 3 #23.... I do know that there have been enough paleontological discoveries about proto-humanity that a skilled and educated writer could make Gnarrk into an interesting and compelli... Oh fuck it. Who am I kidding. Yes, there have been paleontological discoveries about proto-humanity in the past 30 years. I just have no idea where DC would find a skilled and educated writer on their staff.
...

Jabroniville
Posts: 11255
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:05 pm

Donna Troy

Post by Jabroniville » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:04 pm

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"I just wanted a simple origin story."
-Marv Wolfman

“Wonder Girl? My favorite. My favorite character, as far as person I would love to meet the most.”
-George Perez


WONDER GIRL II (Donna Troy, aka Donna Hinckley, Troia, Wonder Woman III)
Created By:
Bob Haney & Bruno Premiani
First Appearance: The Brave and the Bold #60 (July 1965)
Role: Team Mom, The Arbiter, The Caring One, Wonder Woman Lite, The Most Confusing Backstory Ever
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League, The Titans of Myth, The Titan Seeds
PL 10 (178)
STRENGTH
10 STAMINA 9 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+7)
Athletics 1 (+11)
Expertise (Amazon) 3 (+6)
Expertise (Photographer) 4 (+7)
Insight 4 (+7)
Perception 2 (+5)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Lasso) 2 (+10)
Vehicles 3 (+6)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Diehard, Evasion, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Lasso), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Inspire, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
Flight 6 (120 mph) [12]
Protection 1 [1]

"Less-Magical Than Wonder Woman's Lasso" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [17]
"Grab Multiples" Snare 10 (Feats: Reversible, Tether) (Extras: Area- 15ft. Burst +1/2) (Extras: Limited to One Group of Targets) (Diminished Range -1) (27) -- (28 points)
  • AE: "Single Snare" Snare 10 (Feats: Reversible, Tether) (Flaws: Limited to One Target) (21)
"Magic Bracelets" (Flaws: Removable) [16]
Enhanced Dodge 12 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (12)
Impervious Toughness 8 (Extras: Sustained +0) (8)
-- (20 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+10 Damage, DC 25)
Magic Lasso +10 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Lasso on Grouns +10 Area (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +10, Fortitude +9, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Terry Long)- Donna started dating, and soon fell in love with a normal man, College Professor Terry Long. The two were married and quite devoted to each other, but eventually split up after Donna's super-life interfered with their relationship. Terry got full custody of their son, and Donna eventually stopped talking about him once he died.
Relationship (Robert Long, Son)- Donna was a devoted mother to her young son, and was left emotionally devastated when he was killed in the same car accident as his father, Terry.
Relationship (The Teen Titans)- The other Titans are Donna's closest friends- Dick gave Donna away at her wedding to Terry, Kori is like a sister to her, and she grew to care for and mother Raven, Changeling & Cyborg, amongst other Titan colleagues.
Relationship (Diana, Wonder Woman)- Diana is like a beloved older sister to Donna, who looks up to her but goes her own distinct way in life.
Responsibility (Titan Seed)- Donna's third Origin featured her being raised by The Titans of Myth in order to lead a new generation of Godlings.
Motivation (Doing Good)- One of the more good-hearted Titans, Donna often does good for it's own sake. Her desire to save lives and pursue justice led to her undoing her de-powering by joining The Darkstars, which helped ruin her marriage.
Relationship (Arsenal, Kyle Rayner)- Donna has had a couple of superhuman paramours, with Roy Harper falling in love with her (despite his bad-boy tendencies and her unwillingness to put up with his relationship with Cheshire, the mother of his child), and Kyle Rayner dating her around when her marriage fell apart- they broke up quickly.
Responsibility ("Who Is Donna Troy?")- Donna's origins are muddled and confusing, even by the standards of a comic book character. She herself frequently misunderstands or doesn't know her origin story, necessitating another giant detective story involving lots of weirdness.
Responsibility (Last Survivor of the Multiverse)- Eventually, ALL of Donna's origins were confirmed as canon- she is in fact the embodiment of the Multiverse, and knows and remembers all timelines.
Enemy (Dark Angel)- An evil variant of Donna from Earth-7 became her devoted enemy, forcing Donna to live countless horribly-tragic lives in order to torture her.

Total: Abilities: 92 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 46 / Defenses: 12 (178)

Donna Troy- The Ideal Woman:
-Donna Troy is probably my favourite of the Teen Titans- I mean, Dick Grayson is objectively a better character in my opinion, but Donna is Belle-like in her magnificence so she gets to be my favourite :). She's actually a weird kind of character in comics; a "Den Mother" archetype who likes everyone, tries to keep them all happy, but isn't afraid to lecture and scorn the ones who need it (a particularly great moment is when Dick gets all Proto-Batman on her and she just tosses him into a wall and says "I'm not someone for you to just yell at every time you get upset"- completely piercing his "Wah me- I'm so intense and brooding" act).

-Funny for a character whose creation was accidental- she was added to the Teen Titans comic because the writer saw some of the "Wonder Girl" stories in the Wonder Woman mag and figured he'd toss this "sidekick" in to the Teen Titans stories... without realizing that she was actually WONDER WOMAN AS A GIRL, not a separate character! Though it's hard to blame the guy- WW stories at the time FREQUENTLY depicted both Woman and Girl side-by-side because of time hiccups or something, often alongside their mother Hippolyta, and their BABY version, known as Wonder Tot... and no I'm not kidding, that was a thing. So yeah, Donna Troy was CREATED because of a Continuity Error... ain't that just so fitting?

Who Is Donna Troy?:
-And so this younger version of Wonder Woman was now arbitrarily deemed a "Sidekick" and was the token female on the Teen Titans, often dealing with Speedy's flirting, and the lascivious intentions of the artists, who frequently drew her as wide-eyed and nubile as humanly possible. With such a weird origin, it's almost hard to believe it took them two decades to explain just WHO THE HELL SHE WAS, but this was 1960s & '70s DC for you. Eventually, her "Wonder Woman Jr." outfit would give way to a VERY sexy, but VERY dated, "full jumpsuit" look with gogo boots (HELL YES) and yellow stars on it.

-Thankfully, the more continuity-obsesed 1980s (owing to a generation of creators who'd read the early tales and was like "WTF?" about them) brought about Marv Wolfman & George Perez, and they finally attempted to tell their tale. And in so doing, they craeted a MAGNIFICENT bit of work: Who is Donna Troy? became one of comics' finest stories- a high water mark in the lineage of a VERY well-respected run. The story is still copied today, usually still for Donna. I mean, WHAT a great story- it starts off with Terry Long hiring Dick Grayson to put his detective skills to the test, and answer the mystery of Donna's life (she's basically an orphan). And, through a FANTASTIC use of detective work (something even the best Bat-writers struggle with- it's by far the hardest kind of story to write), Dick unravels the tale of a dying mother who drops off her baby at an orphanage, a kind woman who adopts her but soon has to give her up when her husband dies, some cruel "Baby Sellers" taking charge of the girl, her near-death in a fire, and her rescue by Wonder Woman. It's some of the best use of the medium PERIOD when we get bits like the poor former mother, who recognizes Donna even as an adult woman and collapses in her arms. The silent old woman in the nursing home being stirred to speech for the first time in years just at the sight of her, too. I mean, THIS STORY is why so many people were hard-pressed to give up Donna's origin story when continuity was rebooted by the Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Donna the Titan:
-Under Perez & Wolfman, she became one of the most mature characters in comics, and actually had a relationship with a "normal man" a gun-shy history professor named Terry Long, who just couldn't write that big paper (fans would poke fun at the fact that Marv Wolfman wrote the most standardly-attractive female Titan dating and marrying a guy who looked just like Marv Wolfman. I would take a TON of jabs at him for doing something so blatantly self-insertingly and perverted... if I wouldn't have done the exact same goddamn thing if *I* were writing the book!). Her wedding was one of the big touchstones of that whole run run, in which one of the greatest "Dick & Bruce" scenes was written (where Bruce explained to Dick why he never adopted him the way he was then doing for Jason Todd- because he couldn't replace the memory Dick's real parents, and Jason never really had any), and there were great character moments all over the place.

And Then... the CRISIS Happened:
-Donna Troy still stands as possibly the character MOST screwed up by the Crisis, and that's saying something in a world with the Hawks, multiple versions of each hero, and more. See, while some books were too entrenched to just dump everything (Batman and Green Lantern more or less continued unhindered... much like they'd do 30 years later when continuity rebooted AGAIN, and the Teen Titans was one of DC's top-selling books and so COULDN'T change), continuity had re-started for numerous others, including Superman... and WONDER WOMAN. Wonder Woman was "reintroduced" as just now entering Man's World. Well that ended up mixing up Donna, since of course now Donna Troy was named Wonder Girl, and was the Kid Sidekick/Friend of Wonder Woman... who HAD JUST MADE HER FIRST APPEARANCE.

-It's a great bit of irony, as Perez LOVED Donna (he's openly stated she was the hottest & best female character he ever worked on), this more or less completely buggered her continuity. Who the hell was she supposed to be based on NOW? Wolfman and others would try to add bits to this, and typically only make it worse. At one point, she was a girl trained by the Titans of Myth- named "Troy" because they were training various kids and naming them after Greek city-states. Then someone decided that Donna was a literal CLONE of a young Diana created to play with the lonely little girl... and an enemy of Queen Hippolyta kidnapped Donna, thinking she was Diana, and sending her through a lifetime of tortured endings in an attempt to get at Hippolyta. Then John Byrne would write the story that HIPPOLYTA (who now looked like an older Wonder Woman) had gone back in time, serving on the Justice Society as the Golden Age Wonder Woman (replacing an OLDER retcon that said Miss America was in this role in old JSA stories instead), and this explains why Donna chose her name- she was inspired by THAT Wonder Woman.

Donna Gets Messed Up Further:
-So with her origin already a COMPLETE DISASTER, Donna was left on the Titans book... as Marv Wolfman was falling apart as a writer. She gets pregnant and has a child very quickly (as is tradition in comics), and has to deal with the futuristic Team Titans, who fear she's giving birth to the future world dictator. During this time, she drops the "Wonder Girl" name and the dated tights, switching to a starfield & "Greek Skirt" look as Troia, a name that kind of stuck for 20 years or so. Wolfman, apparently wanting to hook her up with Dick Grayson, eventually had her and Terry get divorced, him growing tired of her putting her heroic life before her family. But then Wolfman was gone, and the Teen Titans had their book cancelled. Donna was thrown onto a failed attempt at recapturing the Green Lantern Corps idea as Darkstars, along with John Stewart and some other side characters.

-Donna was thus "free", and Editorial chose her to be the girlfriend of new character Kyle Rayner- the last Green Lantern. Wanting to give this newbie a good push (and push him they DID), they seemed to think hooking him up with the hottest eligible super-heroine (one with a history with various other characters) was a good bet. But then the writers went all stupid and Refridgeratored her freaking HUSBAND AND SON, all for angst and drama. John Byrne, who did the deed, smugly states that "Everyone at DC was just waiting for the opportunity to kill Terry Long; I merely took it. And of course this went nowhere, as she & Kyle soon split up.

Troia the Titan:
-The Teen Titans book was rebooted by Devin Grayson, and Donna, whom I'd never heard of before, was the character that made me fall in love with both the story, the team, and Donna herself- when the Titans were thrown into "Dream Worlds" by their cyber-crazed ally Victor Stone, they slowly had to be broken out of these places that made their dreams come true. Dick Grayson was the first to realize things were awry (when Batman HUGGED HIM), and he set out to rescue his old teammates. And in a beautiful moment, he walks in... on Donna playing with her infant son. Dick, heartbroken, has to try and explain what happened ("there was a CAR CRASH... Robert didn't MAKE it..."), trying to tell her that it was all a dream- and Donna just turns to him, a tear in her eye, and says "I KNOW". She just wanted to enjoy the moment.

-Grayson KIND OF used Donna properly in that series, but was forced to kind of mess around with things. Donna had been wiped from history in Wonder Woman, necessitating some of her friends working together to use their memories of Donna to return her to life. But Grayson, being somewhat new to comics and kind of taking a "normal person" view of things, chose to focus on that instant, figuring that such a thing would be a TOTAL MINDSCREW to a normal human being, and so she dwelled on it. This Donna was shattered by the experience, horrified that all she is was technically just the memories of some friends. She went nuts on a guy for hitting on her in a bar, raged at Wally West (the main friend who helped bring her back) for possibly rendering her more cheery than she should have been because he viewed her platonically, and then she started sleeping with Arsenal (Grayson's character of focus in prior comics- she clearly LOVED this character) as a way to "act out" and prove that she wasn't this super-sweet Princess that everyone thought she was.

-Grayson, to her credit, tried a multi-part Who Is Donna Troy? retread in her Titans, and did an okay-ish job of it. It tried to tie all the goofy stuff together. And then of course DC killed her off, wiping out both her and Lilith Clay in the final Titans story, leading to the reboot of the book as a new Teen Titans, merging Young Justice as the Titans together onto one squad. She had a really sad "Funeral Issue" (you know it's a big deal when NIGHTWING is an sobbing emotional wreck) and it was all really well done, but her death was still pretty dumb. Made sillier since they just brought her back right away.

Donna the Multiversal Guardian:
-Donna was returned to life by Phil Jiminez (who, despite being gay, basically has a crush on how perfect she is- "she's the nicest person in the entire world"- he even wrote in a self-insert who crushed on her! JIMINEZ IS GAY AND STILL LOVES HER- how is she NOT the Best Waifu?), in a VERY dull Return of Donna Troy book that details her confusing backstory as being the result of her LEGITIMATELY being messed up by the Crisis. Like, her strange history is because the universe couldn't put her anywhere that "fit" once the worlds merged together. The book, like I said, was boring as hell- the Titans of Myth being major villains loses it's effect when you consider they'd almost never been seen till that point, and they tried to introduce about a dozen characters in one short series. It's hard to take Iapetus, Theia and Oceanus seriously as characters when they get 4 lines each.

-Donna is thus some kind of "Multiversal Key" and sets up various superheroes to act as agents in Infinite Crisis... but thanks to clumsy writing, she basically doesn't factor into anything at all. Even more disastrously, she steps in as Wonder Woman while Diana goes on a trip during "One Year Later"/52 (in which all of the Big Three are gone for a whole year, necessitating other heroes to step up)- this basically makes her a Super-Jobber, as she gets wiped out by various bad guys so that Diana looks like a bigger star for rescuing her.

Donna the... Fairly Pointless Side Character, Really:
-Her NEW origin story, by the way, is this: She was a clone of Diana created by the Amazonian Magala to act as a playmate for Diana, but was kidnapped by Dark Angel, who placed her in supsended animation. Diana later rescued her (which is why Donna is younger... though it doesn't explain why they clearly look different), and Donna was trained by the Amazons AND the Titans of Myth. She was inspired by Wonder Woman (Diana) to become Wonder Girl, thus joining the Titans and living out her life mainly as the Wolfman/Perez book said.

-Donna thus enters into the ugly world of being a "character without purpose"- she's just kind of the Shittier Wonder Woman, without a book to her own- thus acting as a jobber to others to make Diana look better. Titans books were few and far between for her, as they reflected more the cartoon (which notably did not use Donna at all) or the Young Justice cast. So she joined a bunch of one-off groupings, and even the Justice League at one point, jumping on Dwayne McDuffie's somewhat-lackluster run on that series, and really gets up to nothing of importance.
-The New 52 initially avoids her (given that it's ANOTHER retelling of Wonder Woman's origins), but eventually brings her in as an Amazon created by someone evil- she fights Diana, but is eventually killed and placed as one of the Fates. Then the "DC Rebirth" happens, and she's restored by Wally West again- effectively, the old continuity is now a thing again. Except THEY BUGGERED UP HER ORIGIN STORY AGAIN, saying that she was created to kill Wonder Woman, but the Amazons gave her "false memories" of being an orphan rescued by Diana, allowing her to live a stable life.

Donna- Best Waifu:
-And to this day, Donna Troy has by far the hardest origin to explain in comics. And when she shares a universe with Post-Crisis Wonder Woman, Kara/Linda/Matrix/Kara Supergirls, The Justice Society of America, and more, that's a REALLY hard one. Still, she's one of my favourite comic book characters. Beautiful, smart, super-nice to everyone, and powerful. She's like the ideal girlfriend! Her costumes have been a bit iffy over the years, though- her first outfit was just a pint-sized Wonder Woman outfit, but the awesome-looking '70s-'80s one looks unfortunately dated by today's standards- the high boots & red jumpsuit look clearly marks it as of its era. The starfield one is... rather plain, especially considering how awesome Star Boy looks in similar gear.

-What's funny about Donna is how... uniquely-attractive she is. I mean, almost EVERY woman in comics is hot, but very few have that "thin, athletic look" going for them, especially with what George Perez described as "that stately face" (though he initially based her off of Marie Osmond). Most super-heroines go for the tiny waist and "Dolly Parton in Zero Gravity" look (or are flatter-chested teenagers who LATER get that look, like Dani Moonstar and sometimes Kitty Pryde), but Donna was stacked without being SUPER-stacked. It seems like she's attractive in the way that most WOMEN want to be attractive, looking as much like an athlete than a Playboy cover model.

-Unfortunately... she's now infamous for her horrifically-muddled origin story- it overwhelms literally every other aspect of the character. That she's a "Character Without a Book" only makes it worse- she's at-best a side character in Wonder Woman (which often doesn't use her), and the Teen Titans books feature rosters that have little to do with her these days. Wolfman & Perez were obviously the best creators when it came to writing her, and later writers constantly struggle with the fact that her status as the "Younger Sister" has this bizarre way of Mom-ifying Wonder Woman, who they always want to come off as young and sexy.

Donna's Powers:
-Donna's actual power level is notoriously-hard to pin down, as she's supposedly a Mini-Wonder Woman stat-wise, yet is shown at the same power level as her partners in the Teen Titans. She's the strongest member of the group, but not THAT much stronger than Cyborg is- her biggest strength feats include pushing over stone columns or flipping over a tank- she doesn't even pick 'em up and THROW them. She would routinely get beaten by the same opponents the others did, and never be the centre of the battle-line. It was implied that she could take on the most out of the group, but nobody was ever like "Wow, Troy is powerful and could beat the rest of the team!" She's just sort of a semi-vulnerable Mini-Flying Brick with some of Wonder Woman's same tricks (Magic Bracelets & Lasso), who has good enough mental stats to be a Titans player in storylines where words and skills are as important as actions. She's perfectly balanced in offense and defense, a rarity in comics (where most guys focus on power or accuracy).

-In later years, Donna would apparently increase in power enough to be seen as... well, still a Poor Man's Wonder Woman, but definitely more powerful than she once was- she's probably better in a fight than either Wonder Girl II (Cassie) or Superboy or something, being able to fly at nearly "half the speed of light" and being thrown into the WW/Mary Marvel/Supergirl class of powerhouses. Also she could apparently imitate any voice she's ever heard (a 1-point Feature that I've actually statted up TWICE now because COMICS ARE WEIRD). She also gets a Lasso of Persuasion that combines the Snare stuff with the ability to Control her enemy's actions, with the Flaw that it's her Will (vs) theirs in an opposed check. Also for a bit as Troia she could use Photonic Blasts & Force Fields (to protect others). As a Darkstar, she has Strength, Speed, Flight, and a personal Force Field, along with "Maser Blasts".

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DONNA TROY (aka Donna Hinckley, Troia, Wonder Girl II, Wonder Woman III)- Modern Day
Created By:
Bob Haney & Bruno Premiani
First Appearance: The Brave and the Bold #60 (July 1965)
Role: Team Mom, The Arbiter, The Caring One, Wonder Woman Lite, The Most Confusing Backstory Ever
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League, The Titans of Myth, The Titan Seeds
PL 11 (178)
STRENGTH
12 STAMINA 11 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+7)
Athletics 1 (+11)
Expertise (Amazon) 3 (+6)
Expertise (Photographer) 4 (+7)
Insight 4 (+7)
Perception 2 (+5)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Lasso) 4 (+12)
Vehicles 3 (+6)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Diehard, Evasion, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Lasso), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Inspire, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
Flight 6 (120 mph) [12]
Protection 1 [1]

"Less-Magical Than Wonder Woman's Lasso" (Flaws: Easily Removable) [17]
"Grab Multiples" Snare 10 (Feats: Reversible, Tether) (Extras: Area- 15ft. Burst +1/2) (Extras: Limited to One Group of Targets) (Diminished Range -1) (27) -- (28 points)
  • AE: "Single Snare" Snare 10 (Feats: Reversible, Tether) (Flaws: Limited to One Target) (21)
"Magic Bracelets" (Flaws: Removable) [16]
Enhanced Dodge 12 (Extras: Affects Others Only +0) (12)
Impervious Toughness 8 (Extras: Sustained +0) (8)
-- (20 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+12 Damage, DC 27)
Magic Lasso +12 (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Lasso on Groups +10 Area (+10 Ranged Affliction, DC 20)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +12, Fortitude +11, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Terry Long)- Donna started dating, and soon fell in love with a normal man, College Professor Terry Long. The two were married and quite devoted to each other, but eventually split up after Donna's super-life interfered with their relationship. Terry got full custody of their son, and Donna eventually stopped talking about him once he died.
Relationship (Robert Long, Son)- Donna was a devoted mother to her young son, and was left emotionally devastated when he was killed in the same car accident as his father, Terry.
Relationship (The Teen Titans)- The other Titans are Donna's closest friends- Dick gave Donna away at her wedding to Terry, Kori is like a sister to her, and she grew to care for and mother Raven, Changeling & Cyborg, amongst other Titan colleagues.
Relationship (Diana, Wonder Woman)- Diana is like a beloved older sister to Donna, who looks up to her but goes her own distinct way in life.
Responsibility (Titan Seed)- Donna's third Origin featured her being raised by The Titans of Myth in order to lead a new generation of Godlings.
Motivation (Doing Good)- One of the more good-hearted Titans, Donna often does good for it's own sake. Her desire to save lives and pursue justice led to her undoing her de-powering by joining The Darkstars, which helped ruin her marriage.
Relationship (Arsenal, Kyle Rayner)- Donna has had a couple of superhuman paramours, with Roy Harper falling in love with her (despite his bad-boy tendencies and her unwillingness to put up with his relationship with Cheshire, the mother of his child), and Kyle Rayner dating her around when her marriage fell apart- they broke up quickly.
Responsibility ("Who Is Donna Troy?")- Donna's origins are muddled and confusing, even by the standards of a comic book character. She herself frequently misunderstands or doesn't know her origin story, necessitating another giant detective story involving lots of weirdness.
Responsibility (Last Survivor of the Multiverse)- Eventually, ALL of Donna's origins were confirmed as canon- she is in fact the embodiment of the Multiverse, and knows and remembers all timelines.
Enemy (Dark Angel)- An evil variant of Donna from Earth-7 became her devoted enemy, forcing Donna to live countless horribly-tragic lives in order to torture her.

Total: Abilities: 100 / Skills: 24--12 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 46 / Defenses: 12 (187)

-Donna in modern times is... well, about the most impossible character to place in the entirety of DC Comics. I mean... she's probably more powerful than Cassie, owing to being more experienced and having ACTUALLY replaced Wonder Woman at one time. But then... they never say HOW strong she is, and she always jobs to other, established Wonder Woman villains, effectively being Diana's "Worf" (ie. the character who jobs to the villain to establish the villain as a threat). So she's a much weaker Wonder Woman. Except... Wonder Woman is *PL 14*, meaning Donna could still be very mighty indeed. But, like... she has absolutely zero feats or "Good Showings" to her name. The Titans gives zero indication she's any better than any other character, and DEFINITELY doesn't act like a PL 11 or 12. So this is really just a guess.

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DONNA TROY- DARKSTAR (aka Donna Hinckley, Wonder Girl II, Troia, Wonder Woman III)
Created By:
Bob Haney & Bruno Premiani
First Appearance: The Brave and the Bold #60 (July 1965)
Role: Team Mom, The Arbiter, The Caring One, Wonder Woman Lite, The Most Confusing Backstory Ever
Group Affiliations: The Teen Titans, The Justice League, The Titans of Myth, The Titan Seeds
PL 9 (184)
STRENGTH
2/7 STAMINA 3 AGILITY 4
FIGHTING 10 DEXTERITY 3
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 3 PRESENCE 4

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 (+7)
Athletics 1 (+3/+8)
Expertise (Amazon) 3 (+6)
Expertise (Photographer) 4 (+7)
Insight 4 (+7)
Perception 2 (+5)
Persuasion 2 (+6)
Ranged Combat (Lasso) 2 (+10)
Vehicles 3 (+6)

Advantages:
Defensive Attack, Diehard, Evasion, Fast Grab, Great Endurance, Improved Critical (Lasso), Improved Defense, Improved Disarm, Improved Grab, Inspire, Ranged Attack 5, Set-Up, Teamwork

Powers:
"Darkstar Exo-Mantle" (Flaws: Removable) [78]
Enhanced Strength 5 (10)
Protection 5 (Extras: Affects Others, Impervious 9) (19)
Flight 7 (250 mph) (14)
Movement 1 (Space Travel) (2)
Immunity 7 (Cold, Heat, Vacuum, Pressure, Radiation, Suffocation 2) (7)

"Maser Units & Shoulder Cannon" Blast 8 (Feats: Split) (Extras: Multiattack) (25)
-- (97 points)

Offense:
Unarmed +10 (+2 Damage, DC 17)
Maser Unit +8 (+8 Ranged Damage, DC 23)
Initiative +4

Defenses:
Dodge +10 (DC 20), Parry +10 (DC 20), Toughness +2 (+8 Darkstar Exo-Mantle), Fortitude +5, Will +9

Complications:
Relationship (Terry Long)- Donna started dating, and soon fell in love with a normal man, College Professor Terry Long. The two were married and quite devoted to each other, but eventually split up after Donna's super-life interfered with their relationship. Terry got full custody of their son, and Donna eventually stopped talking about him once he died.
Relationship (Robert Long, Son)- Donna was a devoted mother to her young son, and was left emotionally devastated when he was killed in the same car accident as his father, Terry.
Relationship (The Teen Titans)- The other Titans are Donna's closest friends- Dick gave Donna away at her wedding to Terry, Kori is like a sister to her, and she grew to care for and mother Raven, Changeling & Cyborg, amongst other Titan colleagues.
Relationship (Diana, Wonder Woman)- Diana is like a beloved older sister to Donna, who looks up to her but goes her own distinct way in life.
Responsibility (Titan Seed)- Donna's third Origin featured her being raised by The Titans of Myth in order to lead a new generation of Godlings.
Motivation (Doing Good)- One of the more good-hearted Titans, Donna often does good for it's own sake. Her desire to save lives and pursue justice led to her undoing her de-powering by joining The Darkstars, which helped ruin her marriage.
Relationship (Arsenal, Kyle Rayner)- Donna has had a couple of superhuman paramours, with Roy Harper falling in love with her (despite his bad-boy tendencies and her unwillingness to put up with his relationship with Cheshire, the mother of his child), and Kyle Rayner dating her around when her marriage fell apart- they broke up quickly.
Responsibility ("Who Is Donna Troy?")- Donna's origins are muddled and confusing, even by the standards of a comic book character. She herself frequently misunderstands or doesn't know her origin story, necessitating another giant detective story involving lots of weirdness.
Responsibility (Last Survivor of the Multiverse)- Eventually, ALL of Donna's origins were confirmed as canon- she is in fact the embodiment of the Multiverse, and knows and remembers all timelines.
Enemy (Dark Angel)- An evil variant of Donna from Earth-7 became her devoted enemy, forcing Donna to live countless horribly-tragic lives in order to torture her.

Total: Abilities: 64 / Skills: 22--11 / Advantages: 17 / Powers: 78 / Defenses: 14 (184)

-When Donna was de-powered because of the "Lord Chaos" thing, and left the Titans, which then got their book cancelled, the character sort of remained in action. See, she was chosen to be the girlfriend of new hero Kyle Rayner, and I guess SOMEBODY figured that we needed something else for her to do. And so she joined the Darkstars- a weird mid-'90s replacement for the Green Lantern Corps. It was a super-police force with a uniform costume, as before, and the Earth contingent was led by John Stewart (a former GL that DC similarly didn't want to just abandon; Guy Gardner even got new powers during this time!)- Donna was another former superhero chosen for the team. Their form-fitting costumes, seemingly-impossible-to-draw chest symbol, and shoulder pads mark them as a very "90s" kind of group. Their impact on comics is basically nil- I think their only legacy is in Kingdom Come, where a very chubby, older Donna Troy's son is named "Darkstar" and leads that era's Teen Titans, appearing with the long blonde hair of Lord Chaos.

-The "Darkstar" uniforms are actually VERY expensive, making Donna cost quite a bit more, but it only turns her into a PL 8 Blaster- she's actually notably weaker than her "Wonder Girl" form. Her Force Field, at least, puts her at PL 9.

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Re: Donna Troy

Post by Ken » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:03 pm

I noticed you didn't try to stat up this version of Donna.
Image

I mean a lot of the build would be the same, but she had some funky equipment at the time that was different from her usual gear.

But then again, her period with that gear was mercifully short.

And to this day, I still wonder if the person who created Deanna Troi for Star Trek The Next Generation was aware of Donna Troy.
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Re: Donna Troy

Post by Shock » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:11 pm

Jabroniville wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:04 pm
Image
Evolution of comic boobs?

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by greycrusader » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:57 pm

Donna Troy/Wonder Girl...yeah, one of those cases where it was clear DC editorial and the writers should have decided BEFOREHAND what their Post-Crisis continuity was going to be for certain characters-and then stood firm (Power Girl, Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Woman, Supergirl, the LSH, WW, and several others didn't really get massively confusing until various writers kept re-re-re-inventing their backstories). I mean, I loved Donna as a kid, but her origin is SO muddled at this point-the "Choose Your Own Adventure" thing is pretty accurate. And yeah, Donna's power level-is kind of vague; she was pretty much on the same playing field as the other Titans, and never close to the actual Wonder Woman. PL 11 would suit the modern incarnation, who has been super-heroing for close to fifty years now in real time.

I think my favorite of the above costumes is the black and silver pseudo-WW outfit; the little pieces of armor make sense for Donna since she's not nearly as resistant to harm as Diana. The starfield costumes aren't bad either, and I actually prefer the one which doesn't show her cleavage. The red one with the gold star pattern was fine for its day, but just looks too dated now.

As far as re-introducing "goofball" concepts into comics today-it all depends on how writers execute. The whole "ironic hipster" thing is wearying ('ha-ha-ha! Look at how ridiculous this is-come on, you all want to mock it!") and got played out fast, though I even prefer that to treating the Silver Age/Bronze Age concepts with crass cynicism. The trick is capturing the charm and imagination inherent in some of those ideas and re-packaging them for a more sophisticated approach (which is probably why I still buy Grant Morrison comics, even though he almost never sticks the landing anymore).

All my best.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Ken » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:13 pm

greycrusader wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:57 pm
(which is probably why I still buy Grant Morrison comics, even though he almost never sticks the landing anymore).
You don't really need "anymore" in that sentence.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Woodclaw » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:34 pm

Sigh. Donna really is one messed up character by any standard of the imagination and it doesn't help that, thanks to some legal mess linked to the 1977 Wonder Woman TV show, no other TV based production could even consider using her for the next 30 years, maing overall impossible to ever see a simplified version of her story.
Personally I didn't mind the idea that she was inspired by Hippolyta going back in time, although it was something of a long shot.

The biggest problem I can see with her character is that she is supposed to be somehow linked to Diana, but it's pretty hard to do in a meaningful way. It's pretty rare for high level powerhouse7paragon characters to get sidekicks, because it's already pretty damn hard to handle just the main character. The only can I remember working pretty damn good was Icon and Rocket by Dwayne McDuffie, because the two characters were almost completely different. Also, Wonder Woman is alredy a character with a pretty... unstable identity: lasso and bracelets aside pretty much every writer felt the need to retcon her powers a bit. Some wrote her as stronger/Weaker/equal to Superman, some made her superfast, according to some she can fly to others she doesn't and so on. As a result Donna -- opposite to Dick, Roy, Wally and Garth -- doesn't have a clear template the writers can use.

Personally, when I tried to jut down some notes for my personal merged universe, Donna was such a big question mark that I ended up scrapping most of her backstory and rewrite her from scratch (if someone is interested I'll post my notes).

Also a not so hilarious side-note. I don't who came up with "Troia" as a codename, but it was a really unfortunate decision. Troia is the Italian transliteration of the name "Troy", as in the city in the Iliad, but it also means "whore".


PS: Jab, I think you really nailed saying that Donna is probably one of the "believably attractive" characters ever.
"You're right. Sorry. Holy shit," I breathed, "heckhounds.”

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:55 pm

I was about to ask if you were going to cover Secret, who I admittedly largely remember for her being prominent the one time I tried getting into the the "teen superheroes" comics by DC, but I see now that she was strictly *Young Justice* other than an appearance in *Teen Titans GO!*.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by FuzzyBoots » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:23 pm

^_^ And thank you for mentioning the Lasso of Persusasion. I was initially going to ask after it, having vaguely remembered it having been parallel to Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth, but then got worried that I was thinking of some adult-themed version, what with the whole "mind control" aspect of it leading to a lot of potential stories (aside from, of course, that probably being very much in Marston's wheelhouse of powerful women and BDSM). As has been noted in past characters (and I think your builds), it's unusual for a hero to get a mind control power.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Ken » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:16 pm

Fixing Donna's origin is easy. Move Diana's origin back to World War II. Let her be in the JSA. Let her love Steve Trevor in a "it can never be", and let the fact that the Amazon's are ageless take care of Wonder Woman not getting old. Eventually, Steve marries someone else, blah blah blah.

So, Wonder Woman stays at least semi-active during the time the JSA was underground. And then, a few decades ago, she helps with a tenement fire and the classic "Who is Donna Troy" from New Teen Titans #38, which never should have been undone, will become canon once again.
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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Goldar » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:57 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:23 pm
^_^ And thank you for mentioning the Lasso of Persusasion. I was initially going to ask after it, having vaguely remembered it having been parallel to Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth, but then got worried that I was thinking of some adult-themed version, what with the whole "mind control" aspect of it leading to a lot of potential stories (aside from, of course, that probably being very much in Marston's wheelhouse of powerful women and BDSM). As has been noted in past characters (and I think your builds), it's unusual for a hero to get a mind control power.
I liked how the Lasso of Persuasion is Silver until used, then it becomes Electric Blue!

Nice Donna write-ups, Jab!

Personally, I believe that Donna is now at approximate Diana levels, higher than a mini WW, but not exactly equal with the Amazing Amazon. Certainly strong/durable/fast/good fighter to stand with WW, Supergirl, Power Girl and Mary Marvel.

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Terry Long

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:47 am

Image
Image
Image

Hahaha- that hair is bad enough, but Byrne ages him like 15 years, too.

TERRY LONG
Created By:
Marv Wolfman & George Perez
First Appearance: The New Teen Titans #8 (June 1981)
Role: Supporting Character, Writer Self-Insert
Group Affiliations: Manhattan College
PL 2 (40)
STRENGTH
1 STAMINA 2 AGILITY 1
FIGHTING 2 DEXTERITY 0
INTELLIGENCE 3 AWARENESS 2 PRESENCE 2

Skills:
Expertise (History) 3 (+6)
Expertise (Sociology) 3 (+6)
Persuasion 2 (+4)

Advantages:
AttraBWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH No Just Kidding

Offense:
Unarmed +2 (+1 Damage, DC 16)
Initiative +1

Defenses:
Dodge +1 (DC 11), Parry +2 (DC 22), Toughness +2, Fortitude +2, Will +2

Complications:
Relationship (Donna Troy)- Terry is aware that he is the luckiest man on the face of the Earth, marrying WAYYYYYYYYYYYY the f*** out of his league.
Relationship (Jennifer & Robert Long)- Terry's children are the primary focus of his life.
Relationship (Marcia Long)- Terry's ex-wife didn't care for his best friend, nor does she feel adequate compared to Donna Troy.
Responsibility (Puss-Puss)- Terry isn't a self-starter, and often procrastinates on things. Also, he gets upset when Donna focuses more on super-heroics than him, and eventually that bitterness leads him to ask for a divorce. This is such a big Complication that IT MADE HIM VOLUNTARILY STOP HAVING SEX WITH DONNA TROY.

Total: Abilities: 26 / Skills: 8--4 / Advantages: 0 / Powers: 0 / Defenses: 10 (40)

-ahhhhhh, TERRY LONG. There's only a handful of instances I can think of out there where a comic book author did the ultimate Fanfic Writer Cliche of putting themselves into the story so they could bone the hottest character in it by proxy- usually it gets called out pretty quickly. I mean, Stan Lee wrote most of his female characters as his ideal woman (his wife- d'awwwww....), but didn't just write a guy who looked like him into the stories to nail them. Wolfman & Perez pulled off what Warren Ellis did years later when he added Pete Wisdom to Excalibur to hook up with Kitty Pryde when they came up with Terry Long- the Professor of History & Sociology who had somehow hooked up with the 18-year old sexpot Donna Troy.

-But yes, it’s generally accepted these days that Wolfman was writing a guy like him into the role of Donna’s boyfriend. That he was about twice her age made it kinda icky- other characters shilling for how great Terry was made it a bit cloying- only the masterful storytelling of the creative team kept this from becoming a huge embarrassment.

-And I mean, THAT HAIR. That BEARD. WHAT IS IT WITH PEREZ AND MEN WITH CURLY HAIR? I guess the guy's such a detail nerd that he just wanted to add EVEN MORE DETAILS to the characters. Although, I have to say that Terry wasn't a BAD character at first- it was kind of neat seeing a "regular guy" hook up with a super-heroine- it creates a great deal of stories, especially when you get into stuff like being emasculated by having a Super-Girlfriend, or maybe him getting TOO into the lifestyle and trying to act all tough or obsessive or something. I mean, there's stuff there. The only really grody thing was him openly flirting with Starfire RIGHT IN FRONT OF DONNA and her just laughing it off as “hey, remember you have a girl who loves you”.

-In any case, the two were married in a FANTASTIC wedding issue (which had a lot of great moments for Changeling, who acted responsibly for once). Unfortunately, after that point, he turned into a giant whiner- he started complaining about never being able to start his paper, and soon got fired, losing his tenure. He came off like a HUGE idiot, basically having "writer's block" and simply never doing a lick of work, and spending all his time complaining about it. I guess a pro writer is more sympathetic to that than a regular fan, but holy cow- when you're married to the hottest lady in comics, it's time to MAN THE HELL UP, WUSSY.

-By the 1990s, he'd turned into that "Cop's Wife" character who was always complaining about Donna not being home and stuff. This of course led to their divorce, and finally Terry AND HIS CHILDREN (including Donna's son Robert) were killed off by John Byrne, freeing up Donna for Kyle Rayner to date. This is one of the dumbest Refrigeratings in comics, as it took what could have been a fun marriage into Yet Another Severed Comic Book Relationship, wiping out numerous characters and permanently giving Donna a huge amoung of baggage. Kind of a waste, all things considered.

-Statistically, Terry ain't so impressive- he's just a Regular Guy, though I assume he could handle himself a BIT more than a normal person.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:14 am

greycrusader wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:57 pm
Donna Troy/Wonder Girl...yeah, one of those cases where it was clear DC editorial and the writers should have decided BEFOREHAND what their Post-Crisis continuity was going to be for certain characters-and then stood firm (Power Girl, Hawkman and Hawkgirl/Woman, Supergirl, the LSH, WW, and several others didn't really get massively confusing until various writers kept re-re-re-inventing their backstories). I mean, I loved Donna as a kid, but her origin is SO muddled at this point-the "Choose Your Own Adventure" thing is pretty accurate. And yeah, Donna's power level-is kind of vague; she was pretty much on the same playing field as the other Titans, and never close to the actual Wonder Woman. PL 11 would suit the modern incarnation, who has been super-heroing for close to fifty years now in real time.
The whole thing with Donna was SUCH a mess, but the Hawks & Legion had it just as bad. It was just SO weird. Like... I can buy that editors were blind to what they'd done to some characters, but Perez should have realized he was messing up his OWN CHARACTER like that with what he did to Donna. Byrne CLAIMS he warned DC about the Legion's history being messed up, then says he got panicked phone calls from editors later going "OMG! We screwed up the Legion!".

Honestly, I think in a company that big, a full line reboot is just impossible- there's too many editors around, and if even ONE isn't doing their jobs right, they can destroy a character. It's why I always refuse them on general principal, unless you're going back right to the beginning and erasing everything else. But that just causes MORE problems, as we've seen with Marvel's Ultimate Universe- writers tend to get blinders on and just try to "copy" and "re-tell" the original stories, then trying to mimic the relationships between the characters without doing any of the "groundwork" for the relationships in the first place. So everything is told poorly and just falls flat.
I think my favorite of the above costumes is the black and silver pseudo-WW outfit; the little pieces of armor make sense for Donna since she's not nearly as resistant to harm as Diana. The starfield costumes aren't bad either, and I actually prefer the one which doesn't show her cleavage. The red one with the gold star pattern was fine for its day, but just looks too dated now.
Yeah, Donna's costume has been a tricky thing for a while. The Wolfman/Perez costume was SO GOOD- athletic, sexy and colorful... but it's horrendously dated. It's a '70s jumpsuit- even in the '80s it was out of date. The first "Troia" look was just atrocious- too much going on. The "starfield" outfit is OKAY, but A) doesn't make her look like "Wonder" ANYTHING and is rather plain and simple. Black versions of Wonder Woman's gear look okay... but Donna seems too cheery for that. Plus, her black hair kind of "melds" into the outfits- she really looks best in red.


Regarding Donna's first "Troia" power-set, I have no idea what the levels are. In fact, I actually hadn't built the Darkstar & Modern-Day versions of the character until literally RIGHT BEFORE I posted her! I just kind of went "oh yeah, I was gonna mention Cassie as being below Donna in PL..." and realized I'd better make a modern version of Donna" (which, to be fair, literally only changes her Strength, Durability & Lasso Accuracy.

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Re: Jab’s Builds (Starfire! Bumblebee! Lilith Clay! DONNA TROY!!!!)

Post by Jabroniville » Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:15 am

FuzzyBoots wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:55 pm
I was about to ask if you were going to cover Secret, who I admittedly largely remember for her being prominent the one time I tried getting into the the "teen superheroes" comics by DC, but I see now that she was strictly *Young Justice* other than an appearance in *Teen Titans GO!*.
I might stat up some Young Justice characters if there's not too many of them- the only issue is I've never read a single issue of their book, and DC bios are INCREDIBLY sub-par online.

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Re: Terry Long

Post by Ken » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:13 am

Jabroniville wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:47 am
-And I mean, THAT HAIR. That BEARD. WHAT IS IT WITH PEREZ AND MEN WITH CURLY HAIR? I guess the guy's such a detail nerd that he just wanted to add EVEN MORE DETAILS to the characters.
It's partially that. And part of it is, along with Same Face Syndrome, another frequent artist problem is Same Hair Syndrome. I mean if you look at the Titans, Dick, Wally, and Gar all have the essentially the same hairstyle. So, as George was trying to get away from his Same __________ Syndrome (and in his early years he did have it) he started changing things up.

And it's not like his editor could complain. From New Teen Titans vol. 1 #20. Len Wein, the editor, is the one with the plushy panda. The guy in the orange-ish full suit who gets no dialogue was Dick Giordano, then DC Executive Editor.

Image

Besides, it was the early to mid 80s. There were men who got perms. I still tease mt friend Neil about the year in high school he had "Shatner Hair". He'd had his hair permed (I believe at his mother's behest). And if you watch a rerun of TJ Hooker or Star Trek II, III, or IV one can clearly see Mr. Shatner's hair was permed.

I for one, have no problem believing that Terry was a perm-guy.
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