To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules. *UPDATE* 2/26/18

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Ares
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To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules. *UPDATE* 2/26/18

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Here: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?82 ... orum-rules

And here: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?82 ... 5-26-2018)

A big red flag that stood out for me is as follows:
Support of Gamergate, racial supremacist groups, the redpill/incel movement, or any other hate group is a direct challenge to the lives and well-being of our other users and will result in a permanent ban.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the FBI cleared Gamergate as being not a hate group, and that the redpill movement was simply an acknowledgement that men in this country face their own problems, and that some elements of modern feminism are toxic.

Also:
TL;DR: We don’t police off-site rules violations, but we will ban people over unbridgeable divides in values as demonstrated by off-site conduct.
Which frankly, is kind of scary, as it seems like they can and will ban you over things you don't do on their website. Now that's their right, but still, it makes me wonder if I should take out my link to this site from my signature.

I just wanted this here in case any posters here also post on RPG.net, so that they'd know what the updated rules are, and what topics to avoid if they don't want a no-questions ban.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 4:16 pm

I don’t spend any time in their forums, but I have relied on their reviews for, like, forever. But this is just... wow. I mean, it’s their sandbox and they can invite (or disinvite) anyone that they want. But this seems to be grossly prejudiced against a straw-man understanding of political opinions they don’t like.

Well, fine, they don’t want me on their forum. I’ll do them one better and stop visiting their site entirely. No more reviews, no more world building articles, and no more Amazon Affiliate and RPGNow partnership shopping.
BARON wrote:I'm talking batgirl with batgirl. I love you internet.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Ares » Sun May 27, 2018 4:48 pm

Honestly, it might just be for the best. I get into enough rants about the various topics that annoy me here. There's no reason to bring that negtivity to a site where I'm mainly using it to mine for ideas, find out about gaming products I wasn't aware of, get writing advice and potentially promote my own RPG at some point. I will likely cringe at some topics created there which will receive full support of the staff, but it'll just be something to ignore. And maybe rant about here.

RPG.net has basically become a resource I'd like to take advantage of, but is becoming less and less a community I wish to be a part of given the current leadership.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 4:53 pm

Which would probably be my attitude, if they hadn’t added the clause about off-site behavior also being grounds for punishment on their site. I’ve seen far too much of this “We will dox you and destroy you.” behavior to even bother risking it.

I am very careful about keeping my real-world identity compartmentalized from my online persona. But, these days? Just plain not worth it.
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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Nunya B » Sun May 27, 2018 6:00 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:53 pm
I am very careful about keeping my real-world identity compartmentalized from my online persona. But, these days? Just plain not worth it.
I agree completely.
The fact that I have to keep my IRL-self and my net-self segregated was fine. I didn't really want people IRL knowing that I [redacted], work on [redacted], moderate [redacted], or pretend to be a teenage girl clad in spandex and fighting crime. But the fact that I have to further segregrate my net-self has just gotten stupid. I can't pretend to be a teenage girl clad in spandex and fighting crime with the same identity that I use to ban griefers from [redacted] because [redacted] is occasionally politically incorrect and that's a capital fucking thoughtcrime.
I've had to become around half a dozen people. It's stupid.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by kreuzritter » Sun May 27, 2018 8:05 pm

Ares wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:56 pm
Here: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?82 ... orum-rules

And here: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?82 ... 5-26-2018)

A big red flag that stood out for me is as follows:
Support of Gamergate, racial supremacist groups, the redpill/incel movement, or any other hate group is a direct challenge to the lives and well-being of our other users and will result in a permanent ban.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the FBI cleared Gamergate as being not a hate group, and that the redpill movement was simply an acknowledgement that men in this country face their own problems, and that some elements of modern feminism are toxic.
First I've heard about the FBI thing, but the RPG.net community have had a number of bad experiences with GG/Redpill, such that this has been the forums standing policy for a couple of years now
Also:
TL;DR: We don’t police off-site rules violations, but we will ban people over unbridgeable divides in values as demonstrated by off-site conduct.
Which frankly, is kind of scary, as it seems like they can and will ban you over things you don't do on their website. Now that's their right, but still, it makes me wonder if I should take out my link to this site from my signature.
no, just keep people here from acting like Kameha King or other internet douchecanoes

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 8:28 pm

First I've heard about the FBI thing, but the RPG.net community have had a number of bad experiences with GG/Redpill, such that this has been the forums standing policy for a couple of years now
How many of these “bad experiences with GG/Redpill” were caused by someone taking offense at an innocuous comment, demanding a retraction/apology over the imagined slight, and then going apoplectic when someone refuses to comply?

I hate to keep bringing up The Incident, but that whole mess started when I said it didn’t bother me that women in comics and video games wore sexy costumes. Which led to a ridiculous series of escalating ad hominem attacks (of which, I will confess, I threw a few of my own), that ultimately led to my getting banned from an online community I had been an active part of for nearly fifteen years.

In a world where law students in criminal law classes — thus aspiring criminal defense attorneys or prosecutors — demand that rape law not be taught; a scientist announcing a major scientific accomplishment is denounced as a misogynist for a tacky shirt; and a thousand and one other examples of the Perpetually Offended Crowd and their crybully tactics...

I would normally assume that in an incident where I don’t have any firsthand knowledge, that I should gather more facts before forming a conclusion. I’d give both sides the benefit of the doubt. Gather facts. Weigh the evidence. Then decide. Not anymore. Nope. I’m done.

They cried “Wolf!” (or should I say “Wolf Whistle!”) too many times for me to ever trust them again. I now default to actively disbelieving them instead of defaulting to neutral skepticism.
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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by kreuzritter » Sun May 27, 2018 9:41 pm

Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:28 pm
First I've heard about the FBI thing, but the RPG.net community have had a number of bad experiences with GG/Redpill, such that this has been the forums standing policy for a couple of years now
How many of these “bad experiences with GG/Redpill” were caused by someone taking offense at an innocuous comment, demanding a retraction/apology over the imagined slight, and then going apoplectic when someone refuses to comply?

I hate to keep bringing up The Incident, but that whole mess started when I said it didn’t bother me that women in comics and video games wore sexy costumes. Which led to a ridiculous series of escalating ad hominem attacks (of which, I will confess, I threw a few of my own), that ultimately led to my getting banned from an online community I had been an active part of for nearly fifteen years.

In a world where law students in criminal law classes — thus aspiring criminal defense attorneys or prosecutors — demand that rape law not be taught; a scientist announcing a major scientific accomplishment is denounced as a misogynist for a tacky shirt; and a thousand and one other examples of the Perpetually Offended Crowd and their crybully tactics...

I would normally assume that in an incident where I don’t have any firsthand knowledge, that I should gather more facts before forming a conclusion. I’d give both sides the benefit of the doubt. Gather facts. Weigh the evidence. Then decide. Not anymore. Nope. I’m done.

They cried “Wolf!” (or should I say “Wolf Whistle!”) too many times for me to ever trust them again. I now default to actively disbelieving them instead of defaulting to neutral skepticism.
No need to get hostile, I was just saying what I understand to be their reasoning for such a rule, and that as someone who's been a part of that community for little over ten years, that this "change" isn't exactly new

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Batgirl III » Sun May 27, 2018 9:55 pm

To paraphrase Col. Fury: "I recognize RPG.net has a reason, but given that it's a stupid-ass reason, I've elected to mock it."
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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Chris Brady » Mon May 28, 2018 12:33 am

So who defines what is 'Hate Speech'?

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Ares » Mon May 28, 2018 4:47 am

kreuzritter wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:05 pm
First I've heard about the FBI thing, but the RPG.net community have had a number of bad experiences with GG/Redpill, such that this has been the forums standing policy for a couple of years now
"Cleared" might have been too strong a term, but the FBI did investigate Gamergate due to alleged threats and harassment.
Apparently the FBI released its findings on Gamergate, and there wasn't sufficient evidence to label the group/movement a hate group, nor was there enough evidence to prosecute anyone.

https://www.oneangrygamer.net/2016/12/f ... nce/18282/

https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/27/1441 ... ds-release

I've also heard Youtubers like MundaneMatt claim the FBI cleared Gamergate, which might just be his interpretation of the above info.

The whole Gamergate controversy itself seems best summed up by this one video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STl7-_f4_eA

There were a not inconsiderable amount of people involved who legitimately wanted to make it about ethics in games journalism, but mostly it was a shouting match between two groups of people, and as with anything, both sides had a vocal minority that would take things way too far, actively trolling the other side in various ways. There is a legitimate faction of Gamergate that does deserve the vitriol they get, but I think labeling the entire group a hate group is disingenuous at best. It'd be akin to labeling the entire Catholic Church a group of pedophiles.

As for the Red Pill/Mens Rights Activist movement, it's much the same in that you've got some entitled guys using it be misogynistic, but I'd say the larger group are people trying to address issues that men face and inequalities that exist today, such as the higher suicide rate, lack of support structure for male victims of domestic abuse, and other factors. I mean, there are toxic Red Pill/MRA types, but I'd say they're no more prevalent than the toxic aspects of Feminism or other groups.

Basically, if someone considers themselves a Feminist or a MRA, I don't think that's enough to label them as any kind of hateful individual or some kind of supremacist. I need to hear what their opinions are and make my decision on a case-by-case basis.

Now, RPG.net is its own entity and it has the right to set whatever rules they want regarding conduct and speech. I just think that a lot of the terminology they use and what they disallow make it seem like they're dangerously close to turning their forums from some place to discuss RPGs freely to being a platform for certain things while alienating actual diversity of thought and preventing actual debates from happening.
no, just keep people here from acting like Kameha King or other internet douchecanoes
Nah, that was never going to happen here. I encourage actual civilized debate, but I take any problems people come to me with seriously and have a low tolerance for people insulting each other. Granted, some of the debates have gotten close to heated and there's a lot of folks here who disagree about a lot of things. But I like to think that makes this place better, and hopefully everyone can actually learn to agree to disagree and still be civil. It seemed like there was a time when folks could actually do that.
Batgirl III wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:28 pm
How many of these “bad experiences with GG/Redpill” were caused by someone taking offense at an innocuous comment, demanding a retraction/apology over the imagined slight, and then going apoplectic when someone refuses to comply?

I hate to keep bringing up The Incident, but that whole mess started when I said it didn’t bother me that women in comics and video games wore sexy costumes. Which led to a ridiculous series of escalating ad hominem attacks (of which, I will confess, I threw a few of my own), that ultimately led to my getting banned from an online community I had been an active part of for nearly fifteen years.

In a world where law students in criminal law classes — thus aspiring criminal defense attorneys or prosecutors — demand that rape law not be taught; a scientist announcing a major scientific accomplishment is denounced as a misogynist for a tacky shirt; and a thousand and one other examples of the Perpetually Offended Crowd and their crybully tactics...

I would normally assume that in an incident where I don’t have any firsthand knowledge, that I should gather more facts before forming a conclusion. I’d give both sides the benefit of the doubt. Gather facts. Weigh the evidence. Then decide. Not anymore. Nope. I’m done.

They cried “Wolf!” (or should I say “Wolf Whistle!”) too many times for me to ever trust them again. I now default to actively disbelieving them instead of defaulting to neutral skepticism.
Kreu didn't set the policy for RPG.net, BG, nor does he likely have an encyclopedic knowledge of every incident that happened there. He's just explaining and elaborating on them to me because I asked a question about it, likely from stuff he's just heard over the years while there.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Ares » Mon May 28, 2018 4:59 am

I'll also use this opportunity to say this:

As a general rule, I trust most of you guys to keep things civil and act rational. For the most part, I feel that trust has been validated, given I've only had to ever temporary ban two people on these boards.

HOWEVER.

I understand that many of you may have disagreements with RPG.net's posting policies, old and new. I can certainly sympathize. But if the thought had occurred to anyone to go over to RPG.net with the intention of causing some kind of trouble, with the idea of simply coming back here: DON'T. There are posters here, myself included, who enjoy going to both forums. I won't have anyone causing trouble for either board.

Echoes was not designed to be an echo chamber for certain thoughts, nor is it meant to be a safe haven for people who have ticked off other boards. This place is meant to be a fun place for everyone, even if it started out as a place to keep a certain community together. We don't discriminate against folks who belong to multiple message boards or communities so long as those communities participate in actual illegal behavior.

I do not want Echoes to be known as a place that attacks other boards who have restrictions we do not, nor do I want anyone to feel that their beliefs make them unwelcome here, so long as those beliefs are reasonable and legal.

Do not go there to start trouble, because it might create trouble for other people who post here.

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Batgirl III » Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 am

Kreu didn't set the policy for RPG.net, BG, nor does he likely have an encyclopedic knowledge of every incident that happened there. He's just explaining and elaborating on them to me because I asked a question about it, likely from stuff he's just heard over the years while there.
I didn’t think that he did and I certainly didn’t mean to give the impression that I thought that was the case. I was just venting some built up vitriol at the way places that should be apolitical are implementing draconian speech police policies...

I love a spirited and honest debate. I love having my philosophies, ethics, and opinions challenged. I really, truly do. But, my god, not only do so many people not know how to argue these days, too many of them will instantly rush to censorship and censure when they find their opinions challenged at all.
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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Ares » Mon May 28, 2018 5:11 am

Batgirl III wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 5:02 am
Kreu didn't set the policy for RPG.net, BG, nor does he likely have an encyclopedic knowledge of every incident that happened there. He's just explaining and elaborating on them to me because I asked a question about it, likely from stuff he's just heard over the years while there.
I didn’t think that he did and I certainly didn’t mean to give the impression that I thought that was the case. I was just venting some built up vitriol at the way places that should be apolitical are implementing draconian speech police policies...

I love a spirited and honest debate. I love having my philosophies, ethics, and opinions challenged. I really, truly do. But, my god, not only do so many people not know how to argue these days, too many of them will instantly rush to censorship and censure when they find their opinions challenged at all.
It's cool, and believe me, I can sympathize. I'm someone who loves to debate, chat with people, and I will happily admit when I'm wrong. But actual debating with facts and logic is becoming a lost art these days, and I can only hope that changes.

It's one reason why I don't ban discussion of religion and politics here, despite the occasional frustration it causes. Rather than not allow certain things to be discussed, I just want to disallow certain ways in which they're discussed, IE, trolling, hate speech, insults, etc. I wear my own biases on my sleeve, but I'm not going to ban anyone from this place for having different opinions until they actively and maliciously insult someone.

Otherwise you wouldn't be posting those 40k builds. ;)

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Re: To anyone who posts on RPG.net, they have recently updated their rules.

Post by Jabroniville » Mon May 28, 2018 7:14 am

I didn't read too much hostility into Batgirl's comments, but apparently others did. I figured it was more "frustration" being echoed, since... well, it seems like it's IMPOSSIBLE to be a nerd these days without hearing attacks coming from all sides. Legions of comic book fans crying "SJW!" on one end (a friend of mine is a casual comic fan, but isn't part of the "culture"- he was astonished to walk into a back-issue-focused shop and find three guys screaming about "SJWs" taking over Marvel), and hordes of others tell fans and companies that they're racist, etc. I don't even play video games or get into that culture, so I can only imagine it's just as bad.

RPGnet seems to be a "central gathering point" for nerds in general, so I can imagine they're at a crux point for all this. It seems like their mods are more or less like me in my thread, going "UGH STOP GOING ON ABOUT THIS ALREADY", except they're all clearly drawing a line in the sand over one particular "side" in that argument.

Talking about how "we're monitoring your behavior on other forums" is pretty creepy and weird, though. Sounds like something founded in "we don't want Hate Sites being used as gathering points to talk about us behind our backs", then exaggerated right into "if you talk about us anywhere, you're banned here".

It's their forum and they can do what they want with it. But their reputation online is pretty bad because of stuff like this, and it's only going to get worse. And it's kind of sad, because it's probably one of the bigger "Gathering Points" for nerds out there.

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